Thank you for sharing your lectures. I’m a listener that listens more than once, takes notes, and shares your work widely. Your writing is necessary for all to digest. Thank you for your intelligent, clear as a bell writing, suffused with deep and profound empathy for the Ukrainian people.
I did unload a bunch on Facebook who also knew but more from the days when we could sit at a table together. Better to have a small core. In my opinion
Professor Snyder, you have given some truly memorable lectures, but this one appears to be the most important and the most timely. Clear and profoundly true. Beautifully choreographed as well. If I ever doubted that history can teach us and lead us to acting on that learning, I don't any more. Thank you.
I follow the news from Ukraine closely, daily. A difficulty I have with large mainstream outlets (e.g., NY Times, Wash Post, CNN, Politico, Bloomberg) is they seem unable to define the Ukraine war--to say what it is. It was a Russian "invasion" in February and March, but stopped being that a long time ago. It is not a "land grab," because Russia continues to perpetrate and escalate violence while steadily losing ground. Even attempts to say what the war is seem to have faded away from the mainstream information space. Journalists and their editors are probably afraid to use the g-word, genocide, because they may be uncertain they know what it means. The Ukraine war is a genocide, and I write that in comments threads every chance I get. Thank you, Prof. Snyder, for sharing your knowledge and eloquence so generously with the public.
Yes, I would like to read this as well, if possible. I have listened to many of your lectures and read a number of your books but this lecture moved me so deeply. I know, like your 20 Lessons on Ukraine, I will listen again and again. Thank you.
I just sent this to a young lady who teaches Ukrainian on YouTube and online to say a Ukrainian translation of this essay would be useful and powerful. I am currently taking her online course and she is from Kherson, so the fact she is spreading Ukrainian culture from a place that was important culturally in the past is very cool. Here is a link to her YouTube for anyone interested in supporting her or learning Ukrainian https://youtube.com/c/SpeakUkrainian
Thank you for this one. As a historian of antisemitism I am thrilled that this new program at BU exists.
I watched in horror as we failed to stop two genocides in the 1990s, but at least we called them genocides at the time. The horrifying campaign to obliterate Ukraine-ness is unfolding under our noses and the mass kidnappings and local liquidations don’t get above-the-fold treatment, if they’re mentioned at all.
My fear is people want to look away and not know I was able to listen to your thesis via zoom, vigorously taking notes and then shared some thoughts with a few friends which elicited 2 angry mojo’s. Today I shared this so far no response. I appreciate this thank you. You are an excellent guide
Can I ask the context of your friends? Are they ignoring the situation or engaged? It’s hard to be ignored in this issue. Not being able to tell if people are just indifferent, or if they question the validity of russia’s motives. Or just being told to take in less news as though looking away changes anything, or the placating is any comfort (or effort). Wondering how your friends are.
Friends. Even family. Ones who believe the narrative set out by Putin et al. Some of us live surrounded by such folks. I’m wondering sometimes where I went wrong as a parent, ass a friend. Then I remember that any of us can be deceived, can be led astray. Go along to get along. Come to believe that they don’t matter and that what they do doesn’t matter. It’s difficult to get someone back “on the rails “ once they have gone down an unwise rabbit hole, if I can mix metaphors
I have a Ukrainian friend who has a sister living in russia who supported the war until the latest bombing of Kyiv. Something about the brutality and targets has changed her mind, and she’s now trying to balance speaking out and staying safe in russia. There is hope! My friend keeping her humanity made it impossible for her sister to be unaware. That gives me hope.
The group is 11-15 in the US who I have extracted a positive response regarding the desire to live in a democracy. I didn’t have that many to start everyone is someone from childhood school neighborhood. So in general this group is aware. I have been speaking up about Ukraine since January when Putin started his build up. When the war began I tried to rally everyone. Fortunately one friend on the west coast is socially active and he and I began a daily post - much like pots and pans during the pandemic. Saying peace for Ukraine. I post daily sharing articles. Most everyone ignores the posts. Cat pictures get way more likes, of course she is pretty
That’s cool. I guess I can cut my never-engaged friends some slack if aware people don’t have the time to reply always. It reminds of a recent comment on pbs about Americans being concerned about anti-democratic candidates but still voting for them based on other issues. Hopefully sane people take the time to vote.
I have wondered a lot about why we (people, generally) turn away from seeing genocide. I have read a lot about genocide. The Serbian war against Bosnia and Hercegovina, in the 1990's captured my attention, because it only got an inch or two of space on page 52 (or thereabout) in the newspaper. I kept writing my legislators asking why nothing was being done to stop the genocide directed toward Bosnian Muslims, but never got any reply. That later prompted me to visit BiH twice, and to learn about genocide, war crimes, Eastern Europe and history in general.
I have wondered if people tend to turn away because they think that acknowledging the violence of genocide would require them to do something about it? Or, maybe because it is hard to imagine that the people and countries we do business with could be capable of genocide? Or maybe because we (thinking of the US) don't want to be forced to look at our own genocidal history? I think that perhaps people forget that acknowledging the genocide, then talking about it, sharing what is happening and calling for attention are all ways to do something about the situation. None of us can "fix" the situation as individuals.
Thank you so much, Dr. Snyder, for this presentation! What Russia is doing to Ukraine and Ukrainians is genocide. We can all share with everyone: Don't look away.
I would give anything to hear Noam Chomsky respond to this and explain how the continuation and escalation of this war is Biden’s fault. That’s what the man who taught me about propaganda and human rights, is saying, sadly.
I am so tired of hearing that everything is our fault. This is habit amongst some respected, or formerly respected voices. And it's a habit to defer to this opinion. You only have to ask the question "what if we did nothing"? This we have basically tried since 2004,2014 etc. Why do we even need to hear Chomsky respond anymore. (There are others in this mode btw).
We are the frogs in the pot of gradually-warming water: we keep getting used to the temperature rise until it's it's too late to escape. I believe we are in that situation with regard to Putin and his fellow dictators, because it's EASIER to sit by and feel comfy with the ways these crimes are developing: hey, my life is fine, I have plenty of money, screw these troubles!! Not my problem. This is why I volunteer a lot for Democrats and why my stomach is a wreck from the stress of watching all this unfold; in addition, I have taken a LOT of abuse from Republican voters I have texted: threats, obscene name-calling, sneers, telling me to kill myself, along with a litany of lies and garbage spouted directly from Qanon, Steve Bannon, and Russian internet bots.
I am not certain that you need to look at Nazi antisemitic propaganda as an earlier exemplar of Putin’s framing of Ukraine. You can look much closer to home, namely the USSR’s anti-Israel propaganda created to both reframe the Arab-Israeli conflict and appeal to the “anti-imperialist/anti-colonial left”.
Jews, like Ukrainians, have no actual connection to the land they claim us their historical homeland (regardless of the wealth of historical evidence). Jews, like Ukrainians, are not a real people nor really who they claim to be (Khazars not “real” Jews, anything but Ukrainians for Ukrainians). Jews, like Ukrainians, have no right to self-determination. Jews, like Ukrainians, are an ever present danger to their neighbors and, by extension, the world and peace.
The list goes on, but the point is that Russia did not need to emulate Nazi Germany to develop its bizarre narrative. They just edited their previous work product from the ‘50-‘60s on Israel. Old vodka in a new bottle.
Conversely, Israeli's also make ( and did make) the claim that Palestinian are not a real people ( they are Arabs) and have no claim to the land-- Golda Meir famously. And then there is the claim that the land was empty, that the Arabs flocked in after the Jews reclaimed it. So if you are going to tell the story, be fair. Is this an Arab-Israeli conflict (now still) or a Palestinian-Israeli conflict? Delegitimization and crying about being delegitimzed is happening in Israel-Palestine.
Not only did Israel at one time (but not since the Oslo Accords at the latest) claim the Palestinians were not a people - by which was meant a separate nation - the entire world took that position until the USSR propaganda turned a religious war against the Jews into a national liberation struggle of two peoples. That is why Palestinians are not mentioned in any of the early UN resolutions (including UNSC 242) and UNRWA still officially refers to Arabs of Palestine.
As to the land without a people, again the reference was to a cohesive group with nationalist aspirations. Everyone knew the area was populated. By the way, this argument was first articulated in the mid-19th century by Christians in the UK who felt strongly that the Jews had the right to return to their ancestral homeland.
As to Arab immigration, it was unrestricted and mostly unregulated whereas the UK, in violation of its obligations under the Mandate, sharply limited and enforced. That it was the Jews who eradicated malaria much to the surprise of the British that opened more land for industry and cultivation. Workers had to come from somewhere as the Brits impeded Jewish immigration. You can argue over precise numbers, but that’s a separate conversation.
Unfortunately, the sad fact remains that those who rule over the Palestinians, namely the PA and Hamas, refuse to recognize the right of the Jewish people to be sovereign in any part of their historical homeland. I’m certain you can find individual Israeli politicians rejecting Palestinians but they are inconsequential and do not set policy.
The refusal to recognize the right of the Jews to their historical homeland has very much to do with the absence of mutual recognition, the circumstance of the Holocaust,Western powers forcing this issue on Arabs after WW2. All people do not have a right to go back to their ancient homeland in the newly forming world order post ww2.. The Jewish case was exceptional and an exception... an obvious need/solution.
Recognition and legitimatization, or lack there of, is part of conflict- as Snyder points out.
The individual politicians who want to cleanse Israel of Palestinian Arabs are in the government now but have been influential since the beginning.
The eradication of malaria and import of workers argument is an old one. Palestinians have been on that land for centuries regardless... and at a time more than there were Jews.
As Snyder points on with re Ukraine, you cannot take your preferred slice of history to make a case that is true.
Regarding separate nationhood., we are talking about the era of nations happening. Jews were not ever a separate modern nation. Palestinians credibly point to the beginning of their struggle for national status to the end of the 19th century at about the same time Jews were migrating to the Holy Land.
Thank you for your thoughtful rejoinder but allow me to clarify certain facts for you. There was no mutual non-recognition. The Arabs refused to acknowledge the rights of the Jewish people because it constituted a gross and unacceptable violation of their divinely ordained dhimmi status.
The events that led to the creation of Israel were of such a contingent nature as to seem far fetched or, looked at differently, miraculous. The land that became the Mandate for Palestine (among others in the region) were spoils of war taken by the Allied Powers from the defeated Ottoman Empire. While 99% of former Ottoman holdings were transferred to Arab rule, the Jewish people were the only indigenous group to gain the right to self-determination. What made their Mandate unusual was that at that time, they were a minority in their homeland - but that was precisely why the Mandate sought to facilitate their return in numbers, an obligation that the UK failed to carry out.
If you think granting one indigenous group’s sovereignty on 1% of the land is “forcing” something on the Arabs, I simply disagree with your conclusion.
One of the main differences between the Jews and Palestinians is that the former always saw themselves as a nation that was dispersed from their homeland while the latter came from outside the area (just look at the clan names) and became a nation in opposition to the Jews. That oddity explains the otherwise unusual fact that the Palestinians are the only national liberation group that has no indigenous name for its purported homeland.
While political rights have arisen and been recognized, that doesn’t change history or international law.
The non-recognition was defacto and real and in effect amounted to mutuality when it came to peace talks, a bargaining chip.
Dhimmi status as applied to non-Muslims, not only Jews and was a protected status at that though you present it as a pejorative. That is not to deny racism in people. The point is that Arabs rejected European imposition on them.
That was then and you keep going back to your preferred slice of history. The 99% argument lumps all Arab lands into a large geographical area. This makes your 1% (the standard Israeli right argument) sound so good ( they- Palestinian Arabs have 22 countries!!) This also neglects that the Jews were considered by Arabs to be Europeans colonizing their land (even Jews called it that), not indigenous. One needs to then go back to Biblical times and cite a small continuous presence of Jews since then. Israeli archeology was needed to prove the irredentist case. Building new settlements took off, destruction of evidence of Palestinians homes and lands, and a Palestinian diaspora happened.
There is a difference between a "nation" (of peoples- like the Navajo) and a "nation state". Snyder also goes into this in one of his lectures. You confuse the two making is a "main difference" part of the exceptionalist argument I completely disagree with.
**Are the Ukrainians that have Russian names not Ukrainian? You would never know by my name that I was either Jewish or Ukrainian.
Jews, dispersed, seriously and in part, began a movement back to the Holy Land in the late 19th century. Return to an ancient Israel was for many in diaspora interpreted religiously in prayer and as "Here O Israel".. meaning the tribe, the religion.
The land of Israel today overlaps ancient Palestine with quite a history attached. Boundaries have changed and both people were tribal.
Regarding international law- Israel in my mind has been in egregious violation.
But here again- we are taking advantage of this space with an argument we have already had. Your comments, for me are very one-sided about this ongoing conflict of over half a century that Israel's might and US support has kept going, in disregard of international law.
"One way or another we're doing" - "it is absolutely clear and sufficient from the beginning"-- How in the world do we move our own government to actually say the word genocide aloud? As you talked about 'memory' laws I found myself thinking about all the agitation over books in school libraries, the teaching of US history in a fuller manner that includes not just white people and their take but the stories, experiences and memories of our greatly diverse community of the many. There is a great deal of the Fascist playbook being used right here in the US - all down the list of 9 items which contextualize the war Ukraine is fighting in defense of democracy, human rights, and freedom. Thank you for making this lecture available to this substack group.
Prof Snyder, The facts and the case for naming Putin's war on Ukraine genocide are very painful to hear recited and to digest but the case is irrefutable and undeniable especially when told in aggregate as opposed to hearing individual events and facts of crimes seeping in daily. The case needs to be made to the world, at the UN, anywhere and everywhere repeatedly. Somehow naming this genocide, I fear, also may allow some to turn away, as before in history. We don't want to know, to face this. We put a mental circle around it.. The individual points, the whole case, elaborated, the quotes, the numbers need repeating by others as well. Knowing is horrifying; we should not stop being horrified and spurred to action against this. This is on us as well.
Thsnk you for sharing this lecture. As someone who grew up in Austria close to Mauthausen, the parallels are terrifying. I especially appreciate your warning at the end that placing the Holocaust outside of history carries the risk of turning a blind eye to what is going on today. Genocide is real in Ukraine, in Tigray and in other places. I personally struggle with the blessing of getting so much information in real time while still feeling so helpless. We can try and help out Ukrainians who have fled to our country, we can write letters and collect blankets, it all feels so ridiculous against the backdrop of a genocidal war. And in reality, we cannot even convince our Querdenker neighbours that their world view is not clever and heroic.
Could you please let me know the citation from which you quote at the beginning and ending of your recent (and convicting) Boston lecture, The War in Ukraine and the Question of Genocide?
“We will kill one million.
We will kill five million.
We will obliterate them all.
We will drive the children to the raging river.
We will throw the children into burning wooden huts.
They should not exist at all.
We should execute them by firing squad. “
Thank you for all you are doing to disseminate truth based on knowledge. It is a relief.
You're welcome. Professor Snyder has a video where he talks about the Russian media recently that has some interesting commentary. He also mentions the name of a Russian soldier who says some of these comments.
A small correction from a metaphysical point of view: truth is prior to knowledge.
Truth inhabits a higher moral universe. Ordinary this-world knowledge is informed by Truth. If it is not informed by Truth, it is not knowledge, but lies. Lies are informed by Satan, who is their father.
This connects directly to Prof Snyder's remarks about Satanism. If you look to see who is telling lies, behind that person you will find Satan. If Putin is lying, then he is the Satanist, not Zelensky who appears to be sticking as well as he can to the Truth.
Before even listening to this post, it is clear to me that a genocide of Ukrainians is under way. If that were not the case, Putin would not be targeting neighborhoods, infrastructure of cultural importance to obliterate Ukrainian history, the kidnapping of children to bring them up as Russian and have them "forget" they are Ukrainian, the death of elders who have "memory", targeting hospitals with pregnant women, and on it goes. I'm very interested to hear this audio and will listen now. Thanks are not enough for the invaluable work you do, Prof. Snyder, but I send a heartfelt thank you.
Thank you for sharing your lectures. I’m a listener that listens more than once, takes notes, and shares your work widely. Your writing is necessary for all to digest. Thank you for your intelligent, clear as a bell writing, suffused with deep and profound empathy for the Ukrainian people.
I did unload a bunch on Facebook who also knew but more from the days when we could sit at a table together. Better to have a small core. In my opinion
Professor Snyder, you have given some truly memorable lectures, but this one appears to be the most important and the most timely. Clear and profoundly true. Beautifully choreographed as well. If I ever doubted that history can teach us and lead us to acting on that learning, I don't any more. Thank you.
I follow the news from Ukraine closely, daily. A difficulty I have with large mainstream outlets (e.g., NY Times, Wash Post, CNN, Politico, Bloomberg) is they seem unable to define the Ukraine war--to say what it is. It was a Russian "invasion" in February and March, but stopped being that a long time ago. It is not a "land grab," because Russia continues to perpetrate and escalate violence while steadily losing ground. Even attempts to say what the war is seem to have faded away from the mainstream information space. Journalists and their editors are probably afraid to use the g-word, genocide, because they may be uncertain they know what it means. The Ukraine war is a genocide, and I write that in comments threads every chance I get. Thank you, Prof. Snyder, for sharing your knowledge and eloquence so generously with the public.
Try reading The Guardian. Its US, UK, Australian editions all give in-depth coverage without mincing words.
Is it possible to read as well listen to your posts?
Yes, I would like to read this as well, if possible. I have listened to many of your lectures and read a number of your books but this lecture moved me so deeply. I know, like your 20 Lessons on Ukraine, I will listen again and again. Thank you.
I just sent this to a young lady who teaches Ukrainian on YouTube and online to say a Ukrainian translation of this essay would be useful and powerful. I am currently taking her online course and she is from Kherson, so the fact she is spreading Ukrainian culture from a place that was important culturally in the past is very cool. Here is a link to her YouTube for anyone interested in supporting her or learning Ukrainian https://youtube.com/c/SpeakUkrainian
Thank you for this one. As a historian of antisemitism I am thrilled that this new program at BU exists.
I watched in horror as we failed to stop two genocides in the 1990s, but at least we called them genocides at the time. The horrifying campaign to obliterate Ukraine-ness is unfolding under our noses and the mass kidnappings and local liquidations don’t get above-the-fold treatment, if they’re mentioned at all.
My fear is people want to look away and not know I was able to listen to your thesis via zoom, vigorously taking notes and then shared some thoughts with a few friends which elicited 2 angry mojo’s. Today I shared this so far no response. I appreciate this thank you. You are an excellent guide
Can I ask the context of your friends? Are they ignoring the situation or engaged? It’s hard to be ignored in this issue. Not being able to tell if people are just indifferent, or if they question the validity of russia’s motives. Or just being told to take in less news as though looking away changes anything, or the placating is any comfort (or effort). Wondering how your friends are.
Friends. Even family. Ones who believe the narrative set out by Putin et al. Some of us live surrounded by such folks. I’m wondering sometimes where I went wrong as a parent, ass a friend. Then I remember that any of us can be deceived, can be led astray. Go along to get along. Come to believe that they don’t matter and that what they do doesn’t matter. It’s difficult to get someone back “on the rails “ once they have gone down an unwise rabbit hole, if I can mix metaphors
I have a Ukrainian friend who has a sister living in russia who supported the war until the latest bombing of Kyiv. Something about the brutality and targets has changed her mind, and she’s now trying to balance speaking out and staying safe in russia. There is hope! My friend keeping her humanity made it impossible for her sister to be unaware. That gives me hope.
I have a friend who is a Professor in Nairobi and send him Professor Snyders lectures as they become available. That’s engaged
The group is 11-15 in the US who I have extracted a positive response regarding the desire to live in a democracy. I didn’t have that many to start everyone is someone from childhood school neighborhood. So in general this group is aware. I have been speaking up about Ukraine since January when Putin started his build up. When the war began I tried to rally everyone. Fortunately one friend on the west coast is socially active and he and I began a daily post - much like pots and pans during the pandemic. Saying peace for Ukraine. I post daily sharing articles. Most everyone ignores the posts. Cat pictures get way more likes, of course she is pretty
That’s cool. I guess I can cut my never-engaged friends some slack if aware people don’t have the time to reply always. It reminds of a recent comment on pbs about Americans being concerned about anti-democratic candidates but still voting for them based on other issues. Hopefully sane people take the time to vote.
I have wondered a lot about why we (people, generally) turn away from seeing genocide. I have read a lot about genocide. The Serbian war against Bosnia and Hercegovina, in the 1990's captured my attention, because it only got an inch or two of space on page 52 (or thereabout) in the newspaper. I kept writing my legislators asking why nothing was being done to stop the genocide directed toward Bosnian Muslims, but never got any reply. That later prompted me to visit BiH twice, and to learn about genocide, war crimes, Eastern Europe and history in general.
I have wondered if people tend to turn away because they think that acknowledging the violence of genocide would require them to do something about it? Or, maybe because it is hard to imagine that the people and countries we do business with could be capable of genocide? Or maybe because we (thinking of the US) don't want to be forced to look at our own genocidal history? I think that perhaps people forget that acknowledging the genocide, then talking about it, sharing what is happening and calling for attention are all ways to do something about the situation. None of us can "fix" the situation as individuals.
Thank you so much, Dr. Snyder, for this presentation! What Russia is doing to Ukraine and Ukrainians is genocide. We can all share with everyone: Don't look away.
I would give anything to hear Noam Chomsky respond to this and explain how the continuation and escalation of this war is Biden’s fault. That’s what the man who taught me about propaganda and human rights, is saying, sadly.
I am so tired of hearing that everything is our fault. This is habit amongst some respected, or formerly respected voices. And it's a habit to defer to this opinion. You only have to ask the question "what if we did nothing"? This we have basically tried since 2004,2014 etc. Why do we even need to hear Chomsky respond anymore. (There are others in this mode btw).
We are the frogs in the pot of gradually-warming water: we keep getting used to the temperature rise until it's it's too late to escape. I believe we are in that situation with regard to Putin and his fellow dictators, because it's EASIER to sit by and feel comfy with the ways these crimes are developing: hey, my life is fine, I have plenty of money, screw these troubles!! Not my problem. This is why I volunteer a lot for Democrats and why my stomach is a wreck from the stress of watching all this unfold; in addition, I have taken a LOT of abuse from Republican voters I have texted: threats, obscene name-calling, sneers, telling me to kill myself, along with a litany of lies and garbage spouted directly from Qanon, Steve Bannon, and Russian internet bots.
I am not certain that you need to look at Nazi antisemitic propaganda as an earlier exemplar of Putin’s framing of Ukraine. You can look much closer to home, namely the USSR’s anti-Israel propaganda created to both reframe the Arab-Israeli conflict and appeal to the “anti-imperialist/anti-colonial left”.
Jews, like Ukrainians, have no actual connection to the land they claim us their historical homeland (regardless of the wealth of historical evidence). Jews, like Ukrainians, are not a real people nor really who they claim to be (Khazars not “real” Jews, anything but Ukrainians for Ukrainians). Jews, like Ukrainians, have no right to self-determination. Jews, like Ukrainians, are an ever present danger to their neighbors and, by extension, the world and peace.
The list goes on, but the point is that Russia did not need to emulate Nazi Germany to develop its bizarre narrative. They just edited their previous work product from the ‘50-‘60s on Israel. Old vodka in a new bottle.
Conversely, Israeli's also make ( and did make) the claim that Palestinian are not a real people ( they are Arabs) and have no claim to the land-- Golda Meir famously. And then there is the claim that the land was empty, that the Arabs flocked in after the Jews reclaimed it. So if you are going to tell the story, be fair. Is this an Arab-Israeli conflict (now still) or a Palestinian-Israeli conflict? Delegitimization and crying about being delegitimzed is happening in Israel-Palestine.
Not only did Israel at one time (but not since the Oslo Accords at the latest) claim the Palestinians were not a people - by which was meant a separate nation - the entire world took that position until the USSR propaganda turned a religious war against the Jews into a national liberation struggle of two peoples. That is why Palestinians are not mentioned in any of the early UN resolutions (including UNSC 242) and UNRWA still officially refers to Arabs of Palestine.
As to the land without a people, again the reference was to a cohesive group with nationalist aspirations. Everyone knew the area was populated. By the way, this argument was first articulated in the mid-19th century by Christians in the UK who felt strongly that the Jews had the right to return to their ancestral homeland.
As to Arab immigration, it was unrestricted and mostly unregulated whereas the UK, in violation of its obligations under the Mandate, sharply limited and enforced. That it was the Jews who eradicated malaria much to the surprise of the British that opened more land for industry and cultivation. Workers had to come from somewhere as the Brits impeded Jewish immigration. You can argue over precise numbers, but that’s a separate conversation.
Unfortunately, the sad fact remains that those who rule over the Palestinians, namely the PA and Hamas, refuse to recognize the right of the Jewish people to be sovereign in any part of their historical homeland. I’m certain you can find individual Israeli politicians rejecting Palestinians but they are inconsequential and do not set policy.
The refusal to recognize the right of the Jews to their historical homeland has very much to do with the absence of mutual recognition, the circumstance of the Holocaust,Western powers forcing this issue on Arabs after WW2. All people do not have a right to go back to their ancient homeland in the newly forming world order post ww2.. The Jewish case was exceptional and an exception... an obvious need/solution.
Recognition and legitimatization, or lack there of, is part of conflict- as Snyder points out.
The individual politicians who want to cleanse Israel of Palestinian Arabs are in the government now but have been influential since the beginning.
The eradication of malaria and import of workers argument is an old one. Palestinians have been on that land for centuries regardless... and at a time more than there were Jews.
As Snyder points on with re Ukraine, you cannot take your preferred slice of history to make a case that is true.
Regarding separate nationhood., we are talking about the era of nations happening. Jews were not ever a separate modern nation. Palestinians credibly point to the beginning of their struggle for national status to the end of the 19th century at about the same time Jews were migrating to the Holy Land.
Thank you for your thoughtful rejoinder but allow me to clarify certain facts for you. There was no mutual non-recognition. The Arabs refused to acknowledge the rights of the Jewish people because it constituted a gross and unacceptable violation of their divinely ordained dhimmi status.
The events that led to the creation of Israel were of such a contingent nature as to seem far fetched or, looked at differently, miraculous. The land that became the Mandate for Palestine (among others in the region) were spoils of war taken by the Allied Powers from the defeated Ottoman Empire. While 99% of former Ottoman holdings were transferred to Arab rule, the Jewish people were the only indigenous group to gain the right to self-determination. What made their Mandate unusual was that at that time, they were a minority in their homeland - but that was precisely why the Mandate sought to facilitate their return in numbers, an obligation that the UK failed to carry out.
If you think granting one indigenous group’s sovereignty on 1% of the land is “forcing” something on the Arabs, I simply disagree with your conclusion.
One of the main differences between the Jews and Palestinians is that the former always saw themselves as a nation that was dispersed from their homeland while the latter came from outside the area (just look at the clan names) and became a nation in opposition to the Jews. That oddity explains the otherwise unusual fact that the Palestinians are the only national liberation group that has no indigenous name for its purported homeland.
While political rights have arisen and been recognized, that doesn’t change history or international law.
The non-recognition was defacto and real and in effect amounted to mutuality when it came to peace talks, a bargaining chip.
Dhimmi status as applied to non-Muslims, not only Jews and was a protected status at that though you present it as a pejorative. That is not to deny racism in people. The point is that Arabs rejected European imposition on them.
That was then and you keep going back to your preferred slice of history. The 99% argument lumps all Arab lands into a large geographical area. This makes your 1% (the standard Israeli right argument) sound so good ( they- Palestinian Arabs have 22 countries!!) This also neglects that the Jews were considered by Arabs to be Europeans colonizing their land (even Jews called it that), not indigenous. One needs to then go back to Biblical times and cite a small continuous presence of Jews since then. Israeli archeology was needed to prove the irredentist case. Building new settlements took off, destruction of evidence of Palestinians homes and lands, and a Palestinian diaspora happened.
There is a difference between a "nation" (of peoples- like the Navajo) and a "nation state". Snyder also goes into this in one of his lectures. You confuse the two making is a "main difference" part of the exceptionalist argument I completely disagree with.
**Are the Ukrainians that have Russian names not Ukrainian? You would never know by my name that I was either Jewish or Ukrainian.
Jews, dispersed, seriously and in part, began a movement back to the Holy Land in the late 19th century. Return to an ancient Israel was for many in diaspora interpreted religiously in prayer and as "Here O Israel".. meaning the tribe, the religion.
The land of Israel today overlaps ancient Palestine with quite a history attached. Boundaries have changed and both people were tribal.
Regarding international law- Israel in my mind has been in egregious violation.
But here again- we are taking advantage of this space with an argument we have already had. Your comments, for me are very one-sided about this ongoing conflict of over half a century that Israel's might and US support has kept going, in disregard of international law.
"One way or another we're doing" - "it is absolutely clear and sufficient from the beginning"-- How in the world do we move our own government to actually say the word genocide aloud? As you talked about 'memory' laws I found myself thinking about all the agitation over books in school libraries, the teaching of US history in a fuller manner that includes not just white people and their take but the stories, experiences and memories of our greatly diverse community of the many. There is a great deal of the Fascist playbook being used right here in the US - all down the list of 9 items which contextualize the war Ukraine is fighting in defense of democracy, human rights, and freedom. Thank you for making this lecture available to this substack group.
Prof Snyder, The facts and the case for naming Putin's war on Ukraine genocide are very painful to hear recited and to digest but the case is irrefutable and undeniable especially when told in aggregate as opposed to hearing individual events and facts of crimes seeping in daily. The case needs to be made to the world, at the UN, anywhere and everywhere repeatedly. Somehow naming this genocide, I fear, also may allow some to turn away, as before in history. We don't want to know, to face this. We put a mental circle around it.. The individual points, the whole case, elaborated, the quotes, the numbers need repeating by others as well. Knowing is horrifying; we should not stop being horrified and spurred to action against this. This is on us as well.
Thsnk you for sharing this lecture. As someone who grew up in Austria close to Mauthausen, the parallels are terrifying. I especially appreciate your warning at the end that placing the Holocaust outside of history carries the risk of turning a blind eye to what is going on today. Genocide is real in Ukraine, in Tigray and in other places. I personally struggle with the blessing of getting so much information in real time while still feeling so helpless. We can try and help out Ukrainians who have fled to our country, we can write letters and collect blankets, it all feels so ridiculous against the backdrop of a genocidal war. And in reality, we cannot even convince our Querdenker neighbours that their world view is not clever and heroic.
Could you please let me know the citation from which you quote at the beginning and ending of your recent (and convicting) Boston lecture, The War in Ukraine and the Question of Genocide?
“We will kill one million.
We will kill five million.
We will obliterate them all.
We will drive the children to the raging river.
We will throw the children into burning wooden huts.
They should not exist at all.
We should execute them by firing squad. “
Thank you for all you are doing to disseminate truth based on knowledge. It is a relief.
Timothy Snyder specifically says these statements have been on Russian television in the past several days.
Thankyou! I missed that somehow.
You can find the info online . Here is text and video of a person named Pavel Gubarev, https://nationalzero.com/2022/10/11/russian-appointed-head-of-donetsk-region-threatens-to-exterminate-one-million-five-million-ukrainians-who-dont-submit/
You're welcome. Professor Snyder has a video where he talks about the Russian media recently that has some interesting commentary. He also mentions the name of a Russian soldier who says some of these comments.
A small correction from a metaphysical point of view: truth is prior to knowledge.
Truth inhabits a higher moral universe. Ordinary this-world knowledge is informed by Truth. If it is not informed by Truth, it is not knowledge, but lies. Lies are informed by Satan, who is their father.
This connects directly to Prof Snyder's remarks about Satanism. If you look to see who is telling lies, behind that person you will find Satan. If Putin is lying, then he is the Satanist, not Zelensky who appears to be sticking as well as he can to the Truth.
Ok
Before even listening to this post, it is clear to me that a genocide of Ukrainians is under way. If that were not the case, Putin would not be targeting neighborhoods, infrastructure of cultural importance to obliterate Ukrainian history, the kidnapping of children to bring them up as Russian and have them "forget" they are Ukrainian, the death of elders who have "memory", targeting hospitals with pregnant women, and on it goes. I'm very interested to hear this audio and will listen now. Thanks are not enough for the invaluable work you do, Prof. Snyder, but I send a heartfelt thank you.