An excellent take down of this absurd imperial propaganda
My $0.02 — the truth is totally unimportant to Putin (like Trump). It is only the narrative that matters and if that narrative can help justify their actions or get people to do their bidding for them. These two are fundamentally related in leadership, a necessity to accomplish goals. The union of these two things is what propaganda serves btw, and Putin is a master of it all.
I thought the interview also was meant to model to the “appropriate” relationship of dominant strongman ruler to submissive and subservient “journalist.” For the MAGA faithful that was the intended audience, I believe this was meant to ingratiate them to Putin style leadership - the hated media “in its place”
Thank you again for your steadfast leadership in this difficult moment Mr Snyder.
I think this interview will go over like a lead balloon with the MAGA crowd because it is so boring. There is nothing most such folks hate more than history. And nothing they know less about, including their own. So arguments about somebody owning something 800 years ago is absolutely not going to appeal to them in the least. For those who do understand, Putin's arguments make as much sense as King Charles claiming German territory because Germanic tribes settled England in 450 AD.
For a more contemporary argument, much like the Mexico example discussed elsewhere in these comments, one could argue that France is entitled to take back Algeria because it used to be part of France. Of course, it was actually a colony, which is really what Ukraine was to Russia, a colony. We could also make the argument that England can take back the East Coast of the United States, or France can take back the states that were part of the Louisiana Purchase. The more examples you give, the more ridiculous Putin's theory becomes.
Putin and trump have the same diagnosis. While being pathological liars, sociopaths and malignant narcissists, they spew crap daily with no conscience or feelings whatsoever. Their arguments are constructed similarly. It begins with their personal agenda and the lies are created to rationalize and explain that what they want must take place. They’re always constructed on all the wrong and dishonest reasons followed by attributing and projecting their sickness onto innocent others, while claiming purity to their evil goals.
Thank you for this terrific article about Putin's lies & the real history of Ukraine & Russia. If others want to delve more deeply into Ukrainian history, your autumn of 2022 lectures on The History of Ukraine at Yale University are available for free on YouTube. I recommend them highly.
If you actually watched the interview without vomiting or wanting to smash the screen, more power to you. I thought Alexander Vindman's "new" name for little furrowed brow Carlson, "Tuckoyo Rose" was on point! Thank you for reiterating what is the truth. Given the "both sideism" of too much of the media these days, straight talk is what we all need. Truth and continually speaking it may be the only antidote to the poisonous virus circulating throughout the body politic we're
being subjected to each day. Was so glad to follow your Yale lectures and appreciate the reading list. Have read several already and have ordered the newest book you recommended. Thank you again for such a thorough rebuttal to the spectacle of c and p. Lord! What a situation!
"While he has frequently participated in open lesson-style public relations events in the past, by personally leading an open lesson on the Great Patriotic War, President Putin both assumes the authoritative role of veterans ***and eliminates the function of professional educators (history teachers, museum directors, civil society actors, etc.), framing himself as the locus of historical knowledge and transmission of patriotic values for children***." This is frighteningly similar to what we're currently seeing in Republican states in the US.
“Frightening similar”. Yes. Thank you for acknowledging that point. It is precisely why I posted the link. Our country’s PHD candidates do some amazing research and writing. I love how we are allowed, have a RIGHT to access their phenomenal writing.
In his 3 hour speech, justifying his invasion of Ukraine, Putin briefly mentions the desire of the Ukrainians for self-governance. And discards their drive for independence as invalid. His claim is that Democracy is weak and a failed governing structure. Bill Browder's books describe a Russian government that is controlled by a parasite-like oligarchy. A small group of men who use the Russian government and legal system for their personal gain. They have looted $1 Trillion from the Russian citizens. Investing the stolen money into assets (real estate and other) located in the Western Democracies, including the United States. Where their investments are (mostly) protected by the rule of law. This recent history defeats Putin's anti-American propaganda claims. Which are obviously self-serving. (The money for Putin's $ 1 billion palace didn't fall from heaven.)
From a distance, his strategy is a sophisiticated confidence game. RT and Tucker and Fox and the other enablers are his tools to "tell the tale". Putin lends these tools to Trump, who is a con artist ally.
Always has been. Trump loves money and is greedy for more as are his progeny thus making them easily controlled. Also, you’ll never make me believe that trump can be and probably is being blackmailed as are many in his party. Or else more would be standing up to his tyranny instead of retiring or cow-towing to him and his obviously lunacy.
Thanks for the replies to my comments. However I'm afraid some readers missed my point. If you get caught up in Putin's story ("tale")--his alternate history lesson--you have fallen for his con game. His motivation isn't his passion for re-uniting the Soviet Union. His motivation is personal power. And more billions and power for his oligarchy network. Read Bill Browder. In America we have organized crime that our government fights against. In Russia the mafia owns and controls the government.
2. Novorossiya was part of Russia from the late 1700's to about 1920, then that land became part of Ukraine within the USSR framework.
3. USA representatives meddled (and were influential in part?) in the ousting of Yanukovich in 2013/2014.
4. Yanukovich got ousted, violently.
4.a. Yanukovich prioritized maintaining an economic and political balance with Russia.
5. Russia re-claimed/re-took the entirety of Crimea in response to the Yanukovich violent ousting.
6. Russia won't let Crimea be under the jurisdiction of the West by way of Ukraine.
6.a. Russia has maintained a naval base in Sevastopol since the late 1700's.
7. Ethnic/national allegiance differences and tensions had / have long been the history in the Donbas region.
8. Russia/Putin also won't let the Donbas region be under the jurisdiction of the West by way of Ukraine. That's prime real estate which was part of Russia from the late 1700's to about 1920, then within the USSR it was within the frame of the republic of Ukraine (with Russia as the apparent main authority).
9. Apparently in spring 2022, a peace agreement was in process between Ukraine and Russia. The West implored Ukraine not to accept the agreement, Ukraine abided with the West,…. and the violent warring continued.
1. "Russia is the big dog in that neighbourhood" - Means "might is right" despite the internationally recognized borders. It directly violates the UN charter. Russia is a UNSC member, if it disagrees with the UN charter, it has to resign.
2. "Novorossiya was part of Russia from the late 1700's to about 1920". - It wasn't part of Russia for centuries before and for a century after. As are the many lands around the world were changing hands. The UN was created to fix the border on the basis of mutual recognition. It was a part of Ukraine when it was a founding member of the UN in 1945. It was a part of Ukraine when Russia signed the Budapest memorandum recognizing it belongs to Ukraine. Many countries owned other countries lands in the past, it doesn't matter under the law.
3. "USA representatives meddled (and were influential in part?) in the ousting of Yanukovich in 2013/2014." - The US meddled of course but Russia was meddling ten fold in Ukraine elections and internal matters, such as its attempts to install Yanukovich in his first and second election. As it was meddling into elections in 24 countries, well documented. It doesn't mean that Ukrainian people's outrage with Yanukovych turning back on his main election promise to join the EU was not genuinely their own or real.
Russian meddling into Ukraine, February 2014. Vladimir Putin's adviser on Ukraine Sergei Glazyev, interview with the Kommersant-Ukraine newspaper. Russia he said "must interfere in Ukraine" and the authorities there should use force against the demonstrators.
4. "Yanukovich got ousted, violently." -
Content warning
Leaked, brutal and violent footage of 2014 coup in Ukraine
4.a. "Yanukovich prioritized maintaining an economic and political balance with Russia." - Contrary to what Putin falsely claimed, the EU was a more valuable trade partner for Ukraine than Russia at that point.
Export:
U to EU $16.9 Billion
versus
U to RU $15.1 Billion
Import:
EU to U $26.8 Billion
versus
RU to U $23.4 Billion
5. "Russia re-claimed/re-took the entirety of Crimea in response to the Yanukovich violent ousting." - the violent ousting didn't happen. He ran to Russia for cover and was dismissed by a parliament. How something that happens in Ukraine political life gives Russia any right to annex its lands is puzzling, but given your next points ...
6. "Russia won't let Crimea be under the jurisdiction of the West by way of Ukraine."
and
6.a. "Russia has maintained a naval base in Sevastopol since the late 1700's." -
it is just the further elaboration of Putin's imperial claims for Ukraine land and independence. Russia should have thought about its claims for Crimea when it signed the Budapest memorandum and mutual recognition of the borders with Ukraine. Could have offered some land trade, money, idk. Instead it fooled Ukraine into giving up nukes and becoming defenceless from Russian imperialistic land claims. Putin seems to believe he has a right to make the claims for the lands belonging to Russia in some periods in the past just because it is stronger bully with the nukes. If that is the way the world is going, God help us all. I am from Canada, is Trump going to annex us?
7. "Ethnic/national allegiance differences and tensions had / have long been the history in the Donbas region." - fuelled by Russia, intentionally
Those were not reconcilable differences between Russians and Ukrainians as most of them coexist just perfectly in Ukraine now. Most Russian speaking Ukrainians moved to seek refuge in Ukraine/EU/world not in Russia - 80% versus 20%.
8. "Russia/Putin also won't let the Donbas region be under the jurisdiction of the West by way of Ukraine. That's prime real estate which was part of Russia from the late 1700's to about 1920" - once again, it wasn't part of Russia for centuries before, and for a century after. Imperial Russia indeed was a ruling part of the USSR robbing and subjugating other parts of it, keeping them in by force as evident from how fast all of them run away and under NATO cover as soon as the USSR broke down. You are basically trying to explain again that the Russian empire's desire to control its former colonies is the main cause for the war. That Putler doesn't care about Ukraine Russian speaking people who he bombs every day, as most of the people dying under his bombs are Russian speaking, like the family that was burned alive yesterday incl. 3 kids.
9. "Apparently in spring 2022, a peace agreement was in process between Ukraine and Russia. The West implored Ukraine not to accept the agreement, Ukraine abided with the West,…. and the violent warring continued." - the peace talks broke down because of Putin's demands for the 25% of Ukraine territory
and subjugation of Ukraine into a neutrality (the Finland scenario of 1939 invasion and annexation of Karelia. For that the USSR was kicked out of the League of Nations btw. Finland subjugation ended when the USSR ceased to exist in 1990). There is zero evidence that the West implored Ukraine not to accept this horrible proposal. Former Israeli prime minister rebuts claim, boosted by Russia, that the US blocked a Ukraine peace agreement: 'It's unsure there was any deal to be made'.
Under Ukraine constitution no land can be separated - the same like in Russia btw where even calls for separatism are illegal. For that its constitution has to be changed. BoJo was invited to consult because the UK is one of Ukraine's territorial integrity guarantors under the Budapest Memorandum. Putin is not even able to present the draft agreement, some pages of paper he waved in the face of African countries reps is not evidence.
P.S. Just to add for the benefit of readers.
Putin often makes this rhetorical claim that Ukraine violated Minsk-2 and that it was a ruse. Indeed it was a ruse, but from Putin himself, as he knew that LNR and DNR covertly put all Donbas land into their constitutions while occupying only 1/3 but the territory they entered into the Misnk-2 was that of their actual control. I.e. Minsk-2 was invalid from the beginning, LNR and DNR lied, and Putin already made the plan to annex this land back in 2014 as there is no pathway in Minsk-2 that would allow LNR and DNR to get hold on all Donbas. Putin lied, and fooled every other signatory and the world.
Excellent. Saved me writing some of the same stuff. I would only add that Yanukovych was offfered a power-sharing agreement in mid-Fevruary 2014, to stay in office and hold an election in December. He accepted and then began to run away, first to Kharkiv, then to Crimea and finally to Rostov. CCTV recordings showed that he had been packing up to leave his mansion with the golden toilets some time before that. Where's the violence, pray tell? Yanukovych was simply a coward who wet his pants and nearly passed out when some kid threw an egg at him during a campaign stop back in 2004.
You can see online about the violence, Maidan, and such related, in relation to Yanukovich. Btw, I'm glad I voted for Obama in 2008. 2012 was neutral, I didn't vote. Glad I voted for Trump in 2016 and 2020. And, I hope Vivek keeps on track, I think he'd make a great POTUS for the USA, and for the effect worldwide.
I don't need to look online to see what happened on the Maidan because I was there. That's why your regurgitated russian propaganda doesn't cut it. The violence that launched the Maidan took place on November 30, 2013, when Berkut riot police came in the middle of the night and started randomly beating up young people who were hanging out on the main square minding their own business. Even some foreign journalists were beaten up. The net result of that was that on December 8, nearly 2 million Ukrainians turned out in force.
The killings on February 20 were by Alfa forces at the behest of Yanuovych.
As to Vivek, I'm not surprised he appeals to you as Mr. Mini-Trump. lol
Your ignorance and bias are quite revealing. The USSR, not the Russian SFSR, handed Crimea over to the Ukrainian SSR because it was a white elephant that the RSFSR didn't want to deal with: an arid peninsula surrounded by salt water to which it had no land connection. At the time, no one knew that the Black Sea shelf around the peninsula had hefty deposits of natural gas. Ukrainians then built all the basic infrastructure, including canals to provide potable water in the early 1960s. In the 2000s, independent Ukraine gave licenses to various domestic and foreign companies to explore the shelf and they discovered deposits that would have made Ukraine independent of Russia for natural gas. As to the invasion of the Donbas, there just happens to be a huge shale gas field running from Sloviansk to Kharkiv. That's all anyone needs to know about the Putin lie about "saving Russian speakers."
If you prefer to believe Putin's propaganda, that's your right, but don't claim that any of it is based on facts.
Russia has no right to desire/annex Ukraine RE. It isn't any party perspective, it is the UN charter perspective, supported by United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4
The resolution was passed with an overwhelming vote of 143 in favour, 5 against and 35 abstaining.
Even more countries voted supporting this resolution than against the invasion just because all countries recognize the need to upheld the international law re. lands ownership/borders as they are mutually recognized in the UN registry. There are literally hundreds of the frozen territorial conflicts in the world that could go off if Russia is allowed to annex the land as the precedent is set.
Your ignorant on this. Russia was the primary authority within the USSR, and I understand it was the USSR which handed Crimea to Ukrainian SSR.
And, are you familiar with the Isthmus of Perekop, - that connects Crimea to Ukraine.
Btw, I've visited Crimea four times, twice in 2015, once in 2017, and once in 2018. Interesting place, and some great beautifulness there too,… and it's got some shabbyness too,…. so does the USA.
Btw, I also visited Sochi last March. Nice visit. I've been to Ukraine too, a couple times, over the past 7 years. Fair enough, interesting to see and experience some.
You are Russian. It isn't a problem per se aside that you don't have guts to be honest.
The USSR being ruled by Russia is a common knowledge fact. Most USSR republics were taken in and kept there by force, with Russia's taking advantage of them. The USSR giving Crimea to Ukraine doesn't change a thing as Russia agreed with that ownership by signing numerous agreements.
I gave you the factual answers to many of your erroneous claims, not the perspective. If you have any objection to my answers, please go ahead debunk me, or f/o
"the re-annexed regions weren't part of Ukraine prior to the 1700's." it doesn't matter because they weren't part of Russia either. There was no Russia.
What important, they were part of Ukraine in 1945 when the UN was created., in 1994 when the Budapest Memorandum was signed and in 1997, when the Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership between Ukraine and the Russian Federation was signed affirming the recognition of the inviolability of existing borders.
None of those agreements had any clause that would render them invalid based on the political landscape in the countries. Russia signed those agreements with the full understanding of the history of Russian Empire and the USSR. If it wanted out of agreements, it had to re-negotiate.
Attacking Timothy Snyder personally doesn't help to your credibility either. And btw, Russia is stepping outside of its bounds if you fail to see the irony of your post.
Oh, and you seem to have missed the fact that Crimeans voted 53% (55% in Sevastopol) to go with independent Ukraine on Dec. 1, 1991. The pseudo referendum in 2014 did not offer the option of keeping status quo as an autonomous republic within Ukraine. Needless to say, turnout was 32% and less than half voted to go with Russia. Of course, later on the "official" figure tor turnout in Sevastopol was reported as 123%. lol
This is just a cut and paste of what you said to me. More proof that you work for Putin and have been given a set of pre-written talking points to insert in select venues that you’re being paid to infiltrate.
Your history of Ukraine is very shoddy. The entire western part of Ukraine, including the city of Lviv ( formerly called Lemberg) was never part of Russia until the Soviets seized it. That area, called Galicia, had been part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire for hundreds of years, as far back as the Empress Maria Theresa. My Ukrainian grandparents in Lemberg had to learn German in school, not Russian! They spoke Ukrainian at home.
And Putin's story of Russians being descended from the Kyivan Rus is fantasy.
The Vikings found their way down the Dnipro & established a settlement at Kyiv around 1000. At that point Moscow did not even exist.
Putin always conveniently forgets to mention that most Russians are actually descended from the Mongols, whose Golden Horde invaded & took over all of today's Russia around 1240.
There is no reason to place the responsibility for the violence on protesters.
Protests in Ukraine’s capital, Kyiv, against Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych’s decision, by Putin's request, to reject a deal for greater economic integration with the European Union (EU) were met with a violent crackdown by state security forces.
HRMMU (United Nations Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine) notes that many of the identified alleged perpetrators fled to the Russian Federation, where they found refuge. According to the Prosecutor General’s Office, the Russian Federation granted citizenship to 18 former police officers suspected of killing protesters and a number of former senior officials suspected of organizing such killings.
A recent development:
Ukrainian court sentences ex-police officers over 2014 Maidan shootings
You're sounding like a stereotypical 'emotional' DPPr. To retort to you: It's a certainty 'Trump'/USA won't annex Canada. And so you're being sarcastic, fine.
The long intimacy of Russia including with 'ownership' of the recently re-annexed lands of Crimea and Donbas region, over the past 200+ years, and, the matter of neighborhood, who's boss, and, world-power-polarity issues,….. is the reason the Donbas region and Crimea will remain with Russia,….. basically by whatever force necessary, so that those lands don't go under the jurisdiction of The West, by way of Ukraine. It's about particular real estate, and who's going to control it, first of all.
If that's not accepted by The West, and The West continues with the warring against that position,…. the war will be ongoing.
Meanwhile,…. Ukrainians continue living their lives in Ukraine in most of Ukraine.
You keep repeating your main idea that Russia will annex the land back just because of its imperial idea that it has a right to its former lands, regardless of numerous agreements it signed and its membership in UN/UNSC that declares its principles as a mutual recognition of the land ownership - which Russia has done and hasn't tried to change. Instead of proceeding with the illegal invasion. Is this your main position - that might is right and any country with the nukes/stronger can annex the RE it considers beneficial to control under various reasons?
If that is the case, what do you base your assertion on that the US wouldn't have the same aspiration re. Canada being a land corridor to Alaska, or having the abundant fresh water supply or the Northwestern Passages - they are part of Canadian Internal Waters and as climate changes they are getting open as the ice is receding, while Panama channel is drying out and the Red Sea is becoming not safe for a transit of goods.
Or the US could annex Cuba for example, why not? it is in its backyard and Russia is very active there recently.
None of what you said justifies Putin's war but merely supports the overall notion that Putin's invasion is imperialistic in its nature and illegal. You are very correctly placing his main notion as first. In Putin's mafia world "the bigger dog" has a right to subjugate the smaller and to destroy it, if it is resisting to be enslaved.
I''ll use use the quote from this article we are reading: "Most of what Putin says about the past is ludicrous; but even had he said some true things, that would not justify destroying the international order, invading neighbours, and committing genocide. "
And now I will briefly address Putin's arguments below, just for fun.
Galicia was a region in eastern Europe where most of today's western Ukraine, including the city of Lviv, is located. In those days Lviv was called Lemberg. Galicia was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire for hundreds of years, as far back as the Empress Maria Teresa. After WW I & Austria-Hungary lost the war, people in the Ukrainian part of Galicia tried to have the Versailles Treaty declare Galicia a Ukrainian homeland. But, instead the treaty gave it to the newly independent Poland, & Lemberg's name was changed to Lwow.
My maternal Ukrainian grandparents grew up in Lemberg, in Galicia. In school they had to learn German, though at home they spoke Ukrainian. This area of Ukraine was never part of Russia until the Soviets seized it.
Interestingly, if today you fly from Munich, Germany to Lviv, Ukraine, the airport screens identify your destination as Lemberg. Another interesting fact: Two important Jewish Ukrainians studied law in Lemberg and made very important contributions to our international law in times of war: Raphael Lemkin, who coined the word "Genocide" in 1945, & Hersch Lauterpacht, who coined the phrase "Crimes against humanity" in 1946. Lauterpacht also served as a lawyer at the Nuremberg Trials.
Philippe Sands has written a wonderful book about both men, entitled "East West Street".
But you are not providing any constructive counterpoints, no facts, but the idea that Russia should be allowed to annex Ukraine land just because it wants and can, i.e. might is right which is illegal and has no precedent since the UN creation.
All your ramblings about Russian empire owning the lands between 300-100 years ago are nullified by the fact Ukraine owning the lands for the last 100 years, being an original UN founding member with that land, in 1945 and by Russia agreeing the lands belong to Ukraine under numerous agreements it signed, incl. the UN mutual recognition procedure.
NATO, Maidan, Yanukovych arguments are irrelevant as not only Russia is involved in those subjects even more than the US, none of it gives Russia any formal right to claim the lands. Russia is the UNSC member. If it disagrees with the main UN principles of the territorial integrity of all members based on the mutual recognition, it is more then welcome to vacate the seat.
They are constructive counterpoints, if you understand political and social dynamics.
In your 2nd paragraph: the 100 years of 'legal' ownership doesn't null the 300 to 100, given the context of the USSR frame, and the matter of world-power-polarity issues.
NATO, Maidan, Yanukovich are fully relevant on the matters.
Again, neighborhood, history, politics, and social factors.
This is not all about law and formal agreements.
I'm here to present a reasonable realistic counterpoint,…. given this DPP / Timothy Snyder echo chamber.
Out of the latest 100, 80 years of Ukraine ownership followed the UN creation and Russia signing agreements that it recognizes Ukraine ownership. The UN was created specifically address territorial disputes.
NATO, Maidan, Yanukovich are fully irrelevant to the matter of the land ownership. If you have any idea how, please elaborate.
It is all about the law and formal agreements that Russia is violating. If Russia wants to disregard the UN rules it is more than welcome to vacate the UNSC seat.
Your so called " realistic point of view" is just the assertion that might is right, agreements doesn't matter and Russia can't be trusted. It is a street gang rule. Be intellectually honest, admit that you are Russian, ashamed of your nationality and that you are advocating for abolishing the UN, cooperation between the countries based on the mutual recognition and international agreements and support "might is right" mode of action.
You’re correct that this is the narrative, or story, from the POV of Putin. Nevertheless, there are things that aren’t entirely true, for example numbers 3 and 9. And in any event, the rest of the narrative doesn’t justify the violent effort to reattach Ukraine to Russia. It wasn’t part of Russia prior to the 1700’s and became free and independent in 1990. Crimea officially became part of Ukraine in 1954, under the Soviet Union, and remained part of free and independent Ukraine until 2014. Just because Putin doesn’t like what happened and still considers the breakup of the USSR to be the “worst geopolitical catastrophe in history”, that doesn’t mean he or Russia has the right to “take it back”.
FWIW, this is a perfect and concise outline of the argument that everyone opposed to our aiding Ukraine adheres to. I have seen this narrative repeatedly in the WSJ comments. It also lives in and is quite popular in the comments of Bari Weiss’s The Free Press on Substack. One sees it occasionally even in opinion pieces in the WSJ. The fact that people like Mearsheimer adhere to it makes it all that much worse.
Aha! You reveal yourself Scott! Have you read the books in Snyder’s bibliography? Timothy Snyder is a Yale history professor who’s been studying this stuff his entire career. For my part, I was a Republican from 1974 until Jan 7, 2021. I left the GOP as a direct result of Jan 6th. And I almost exclusively voted Republican during that time (but I voted for Hillary in 2016 and Biden in 2020, for the main reason of keeping Donald Trump out of the White House). So don’t go accusing me of being part of a Democratic Party deep state conspiracy.
There was a time when the GOP knew and understood the threat that Russia has always been for democracy and freedom. The sudden love fest for Putin defies explanation. You, Scott, are either on Putin’s payroll or Donald Trump’s. Stop being a blind fool and read the history. Those books Snyder cited go back 30 years some of them. I highly doubt that the Democratic Party has been plotting against Putin and for Ukraine all that time. But the MAGA cult could easily be led in that direction. My personal guess is that you are a Russian.
No, false. I was sharing with people make similar points, true. You're a smarty ;) Two copy-pastes of my post to different people,….. 'call out the enforcers!'
If historical boundiaries and ethnicities had any relationship to current nation states, it would be interesting for Tucker to interview Americas indigenous leaders to get their views. Tucker Carlson should be taken seriously about nothing, as also should Putin. It is a disservice to humanity and decency to give either the time and space to express their views on any topic at all.
Since Americans generally give no consideration to indigenous claims of territory, I have tried to explain Russia’s claim to Ukraine as similar to Mexico trying to reclaim the Southwest - that because Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California were originally part of Mexico, and even note that many residents of those states still speak Spanish, those territories still belong to Mexico. So Mexico has the right to fight to reclaim them.
Except that Mexico doesn’t have the right to reclaim those lands, and Russia doesn’t have the right to reclaim Ukraine. The parallel history argument is correct, but neither one leads to a “right to reclaim”. Indeed, I have made the same argument to people who side with Russia having a right to Ukraine. When I ask them if they would be okay with Mexico reclaiming the southwestern part of the United States, they always back down and shut up.
With alternative facts as the guiding light of the GOP I’m not confident that republicans want to learn anything about history. I mean they’re on a crusade to snuff out all American history that offends them. Thank you Professors Snyder for educating us and keeping the faith that sooner than later the truth will emerge.
Putin makes the same mistakes about history as do most Americans, myself included. Perhaps the Russian trolls monitoring this Substack could suggest that he inform himself by taking Professor Snyder's course, as I did.
I’m sure he does but as usual chose not to. Not only did tuckums have to sit through putin’s BS but the translation as well. I’m certain his ass was quite chapped at the end of it all and for once, that perpetually confused look on his face was well-earned for once.
Putin regularly used German and English during his past career in the KGB, when he was stationed in Dresden in what was then East Germany during the 80s. It is understood his ability to speak the language improved as a result of his friendship with former German chancellor Gerhard.
It should be obvious that when you write, "On Putin's logic, leaders anywhere can make endless claims to territory based on various interpretations of the past," we are now living in a country where a substantial number of national figures and institutions (e.g. the Supreme Court, and all the MAGA Republicans) are making endless substantial claims to our psychologic and economic territory based on fabulated interpretations of the past. Thus preparing for..............
Awesome essay! It is so important to keep stressing well-founded facts and not be terrorized by the totalitarian power Putin exercises ... I wish the focus could move to what will happen inside Russia
🙏 I’ve been waiting for this exact post since learning “the tuck” was going to interview Putin. How many Americans will believe the lies and fantasies?
I keep coming back to this question: “Why are the Russians so _________. Thats a hard one for non historians to even begin to answer. Some of it starts with the end of WW2. How many Russian people died/were killed during WW2? Compare that to the US and something should click.
What a horrible way for the Tuck to make a living. He should know better. He disqualifies himself as a journalist imho.
In my own curiosity, I came across this article by a graduate student researching memory laws and Putin’s role as the ceremonial head of Russian revisionist history education. It’s a quick and easy read substackers may find valuable.
And do we think the US dumbing down of our public educational/textbook/online/mass media/book banning Republican regime has learned one thing well - yes the Putin educational process.
Thank you so much for this critical distillation of a history that many of us are not well versed in and that a profound number of world occupants no nothing about (thinking of our US citizens/electorate/tfg/Republican politicians). Worst of all is how history and truth has been bastardized throughout the ages for power, wealth and now media popularity with the slaughter of millions now and throughout time.
No, we do not learn anything from history….
The cost of these propagandists’ lies is dire. History has told us so.
using reason and facts regarding history with Putin is like disabusing a person with a delusion - doesn't go anywhere; instead, validate his reality with a, here's the deal approach - although as he's bona fide sociopath, i'm hard pressed to come up with something that would result in changed behavior - perhaps someone who knows him well would be able to leverage his unremitting nihilism
An excellent take down of this absurd imperial propaganda
My $0.02 — the truth is totally unimportant to Putin (like Trump). It is only the narrative that matters and if that narrative can help justify their actions or get people to do their bidding for them. These two are fundamentally related in leadership, a necessity to accomplish goals. The union of these two things is what propaganda serves btw, and Putin is a master of it all.
I thought the interview also was meant to model to the “appropriate” relationship of dominant strongman ruler to submissive and subservient “journalist.” For the MAGA faithful that was the intended audience, I believe this was meant to ingratiate them to Putin style leadership - the hated media “in its place”
Thank you again for your steadfast leadership in this difficult moment Mr Snyder.
I think this interview will go over like a lead balloon with the MAGA crowd because it is so boring. There is nothing most such folks hate more than history. And nothing they know less about, including their own. So arguments about somebody owning something 800 years ago is absolutely not going to appeal to them in the least. For those who do understand, Putin's arguments make as much sense as King Charles claiming German territory because Germanic tribes settled England in 450 AD.
For a more contemporary argument, much like the Mexico example discussed elsewhere in these comments, one could argue that France is entitled to take back Algeria because it used to be part of France. Of course, it was actually a colony, which is really what Ukraine was to Russia, a colony. We could also make the argument that England can take back the East Coast of the United States, or France can take back the states that were part of the Louisiana Purchase. The more examples you give, the more ridiculous Putin's theory becomes.
Putin and trump have the same diagnosis. While being pathological liars, sociopaths and malignant narcissists, they spew crap daily with no conscience or feelings whatsoever. Their arguments are constructed similarly. It begins with their personal agenda and the lies are created to rationalize and explain that what they want must take place. They’re always constructed on all the wrong and dishonest reasons followed by attributing and projecting their sickness onto innocent others, while claiming purity to their evil goals.
Thank you for this terrific article about Putin's lies & the real history of Ukraine & Russia. If others want to delve more deeply into Ukrainian history, your autumn of 2022 lectures on The History of Ukraine at Yale University are available for free on YouTube. I recommend them highly.
If you actually watched the interview without vomiting or wanting to smash the screen, more power to you. I thought Alexander Vindman's "new" name for little furrowed brow Carlson, "Tuckoyo Rose" was on point! Thank you for reiterating what is the truth. Given the "both sideism" of too much of the media these days, straight talk is what we all need. Truth and continually speaking it may be the only antidote to the poisonous virus circulating throughout the body politic we're
being subjected to each day. Was so glad to follow your Yale lectures and appreciate the reading list. Have read several already and have ordered the newest book you recommended. Thank you again for such a thorough rebuttal to the spectacle of c and p. Lord! What a situation!
Love the "Tuckoyo Rose" label; had not heard. Thank you
I like "Tucker Charlatan".
I like #UsefulIdiot Tucker 😎
I read /subscribe to Kyiv Independent and Kyiv Post. He often has an opinion piece in these publications. Join up as a member.
“The virus of forgetfulness”-V. Putin
https://daviscenter.fas.harvard.edu/insights/childhood-under-siege-evolution-world-war-ii-education-russian-memory-politics
"While he has frequently participated in open lesson-style public relations events in the past, by personally leading an open lesson on the Great Patriotic War, President Putin both assumes the authoritative role of veterans ***and eliminates the function of professional educators (history teachers, museum directors, civil society actors, etc.), framing himself as the locus of historical knowledge and transmission of patriotic values for children***." This is frighteningly similar to what we're currently seeing in Republican states in the US.
Thanks for this article, Ted.
“Frightening similar”. Yes. Thank you for acknowledging that point. It is precisely why I posted the link. Our country’s PHD candidates do some amazing research and writing. I love how we are allowed, have a RIGHT to access their phenomenal writing.
plain frightening... Republican states, I believe are not quite there yet.
Carlson is more like Lord Haw-Haw of this era. He should stay in Russia - we don't want him back.
In his 3 hour speech, justifying his invasion of Ukraine, Putin briefly mentions the desire of the Ukrainians for self-governance. And discards their drive for independence as invalid. His claim is that Democracy is weak and a failed governing structure. Bill Browder's books describe a Russian government that is controlled by a parasite-like oligarchy. A small group of men who use the Russian government and legal system for their personal gain. They have looted $1 Trillion from the Russian citizens. Investing the stolen money into assets (real estate and other) located in the Western Democracies, including the United States. Where their investments are (mostly) protected by the rule of law. This recent history defeats Putin's anti-American propaganda claims. Which are obviously self-serving. (The money for Putin's $ 1 billion palace didn't fall from heaven.)
From a distance, his strategy is a sophisiticated confidence game. RT and Tucker and Fox and the other enablers are his tools to "tell the tale". Putin lends these tools to Trump, who is a con artist ally.
Trump is Putin’s #UsefulIdiot 😎
Always has been. Trump loves money and is greedy for more as are his progeny thus making them easily controlled. Also, you’ll never make me believe that trump can be and probably is being blackmailed as are many in his party. Or else more would be standing up to his tyranny instead of retiring or cow-towing to him and his obviously lunacy.
GQP MAGA Fruitcakes put party before country.
Thanks for the replies to my comments. However I'm afraid some readers missed my point. If you get caught up in Putin's story ("tale")--his alternate history lesson--you have fallen for his con game. His motivation isn't his passion for re-uniting the Soviet Union. His motivation is personal power. And more billions and power for his oligarchy network. Read Bill Browder. In America we have organized crime that our government fights against. In Russia the mafia owns and controls the government.
Here are truth's within Putin's perspective:
1. Russia is the big dog in that neighborhood.
2. Novorossiya was part of Russia from the late 1700's to about 1920, then that land became part of Ukraine within the USSR framework.
3. USA representatives meddled (and were influential in part?) in the ousting of Yanukovich in 2013/2014.
4. Yanukovich got ousted, violently.
4.a. Yanukovich prioritized maintaining an economic and political balance with Russia.
5. Russia re-claimed/re-took the entirety of Crimea in response to the Yanukovich violent ousting.
6. Russia won't let Crimea be under the jurisdiction of the West by way of Ukraine.
6.a. Russia has maintained a naval base in Sevastopol since the late 1700's.
7. Ethnic/national allegiance differences and tensions had / have long been the history in the Donbas region.
8. Russia/Putin also won't let the Donbas region be under the jurisdiction of the West by way of Ukraine. That's prime real estate which was part of Russia from the late 1700's to about 1920, then within the USSR it was within the frame of the republic of Ukraine (with Russia as the apparent main authority).
9. Apparently in spring 2022, a peace agreement was in process between Ukraine and Russia. The West implored Ukraine not to accept the agreement, Ukraine abided with the West,…. and the violent warring continued.
1. "Russia is the big dog in that neighbourhood" - Means "might is right" despite the internationally recognized borders. It directly violates the UN charter. Russia is a UNSC member, if it disagrees with the UN charter, it has to resign.
2. "Novorossiya was part of Russia from the late 1700's to about 1920". - It wasn't part of Russia for centuries before and for a century after. As are the many lands around the world were changing hands. The UN was created to fix the border on the basis of mutual recognition. It was a part of Ukraine when it was a founding member of the UN in 1945. It was a part of Ukraine when Russia signed the Budapest memorandum recognizing it belongs to Ukraine. Many countries owned other countries lands in the past, it doesn't matter under the law.
3. "USA representatives meddled (and were influential in part?) in the ousting of Yanukovich in 2013/2014." - The US meddled of course but Russia was meddling ten fold in Ukraine elections and internal matters, such as its attempts to install Yanukovich in his first and second election. As it was meddling into elections in 24 countries, well documented. It doesn't mean that Ukrainian people's outrage with Yanukovych turning back on his main election promise to join the EU was not genuinely their own or real.
Russian meddling into Ukraine, February 2014. Vladimir Putin's adviser on Ukraine Sergei Glazyev, interview with the Kommersant-Ukraine newspaper. Russia he said "must interfere in Ukraine" and the authorities there should use force against the demonstrators.
4. "Yanukovich got ousted, violently." -
Content warning
Leaked, brutal and violent footage of 2014 coup in Ukraine
https://twitter.com/i/status/1742026721505824872
4.a. "Yanukovich prioritized maintaining an economic and political balance with Russia." - Contrary to what Putin falsely claimed, the EU was a more valuable trade partner for Ukraine than Russia at that point.
Export:
U to EU $16.9 Billion
versus
U to RU $15.1 Billion
Import:
EU to U $26.8 Billion
versus
RU to U $23.4 Billion
5. "Russia re-claimed/re-took the entirety of Crimea in response to the Yanukovich violent ousting." - the violent ousting didn't happen. He ran to Russia for cover and was dismissed by a parliament. How something that happens in Ukraine political life gives Russia any right to annex its lands is puzzling, but given your next points ...
6. "Russia won't let Crimea be under the jurisdiction of the West by way of Ukraine."
and
6.a. "Russia has maintained a naval base in Sevastopol since the late 1700's." -
it is just the further elaboration of Putin's imperial claims for Ukraine land and independence. Russia should have thought about its claims for Crimea when it signed the Budapest memorandum and mutual recognition of the borders with Ukraine. Could have offered some land trade, money, idk. Instead it fooled Ukraine into giving up nukes and becoming defenceless from Russian imperialistic land claims. Putin seems to believe he has a right to make the claims for the lands belonging to Russia in some periods in the past just because it is stronger bully with the nukes. If that is the way the world is going, God help us all. I am from Canada, is Trump going to annex us?
7. "Ethnic/national allegiance differences and tensions had / have long been the history in the Donbas region." - fuelled by Russia, intentionally
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/problem-in-ukraine-isnt-svoboda-its-yanukovych-reply-to-ivan-katchanovksi/
Those were not reconcilable differences between Russians and Ukrainians as most of them coexist just perfectly in Ukraine now. Most Russian speaking Ukrainians moved to seek refuge in Ukraine/EU/world not in Russia - 80% versus 20%.
8. "Russia/Putin also won't let the Donbas region be under the jurisdiction of the West by way of Ukraine. That's prime real estate which was part of Russia from the late 1700's to about 1920" - once again, it wasn't part of Russia for centuries before, and for a century after. Imperial Russia indeed was a ruling part of the USSR robbing and subjugating other parts of it, keeping them in by force as evident from how fast all of them run away and under NATO cover as soon as the USSR broke down. You are basically trying to explain again that the Russian empire's desire to control its former colonies is the main cause for the war. That Putler doesn't care about Ukraine Russian speaking people who he bombs every day, as most of the people dying under his bombs are Russian speaking, like the family that was burned alive yesterday incl. 3 kids.
9. "Apparently in spring 2022, a peace agreement was in process between Ukraine and Russia. The West implored Ukraine not to accept the agreement, Ukraine abided with the West,…. and the violent warring continued." - the peace talks broke down because of Putin's demands for the 25% of Ukraine territory
https://www.rbc.ru/politics/22/02/2022/62150f759a7947ccbc19629c
and subjugation of Ukraine into a neutrality (the Finland scenario of 1939 invasion and annexation of Karelia. For that the USSR was kicked out of the League of Nations btw. Finland subjugation ended when the USSR ceased to exist in 1990). There is zero evidence that the West implored Ukraine not to accept this horrible proposal. Former Israeli prime minister rebuts claim, boosted by Russia, that the US blocked a Ukraine peace agreement: 'It's unsure there was any deal to be made'.
https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-bennett-walks-back-claim-west-blocked-ukraine-russia-peace-deal-2023-2
Under Ukraine constitution no land can be separated - the same like in Russia btw where even calls for separatism are illegal. For that its constitution has to be changed. BoJo was invited to consult because the UK is one of Ukraine's territorial integrity guarantors under the Budapest Memorandum. Putin is not even able to present the draft agreement, some pages of paper he waved in the face of African countries reps is not evidence.
P.S. Just to add for the benefit of readers.
Putin often makes this rhetorical claim that Ukraine violated Minsk-2 and that it was a ruse. Indeed it was a ruse, but from Putin himself, as he knew that LNR and DNR covertly put all Donbas land into their constitutions while occupying only 1/3 but the territory they entered into the Misnk-2 was that of their actual control. I.e. Minsk-2 was invalid from the beginning, LNR and DNR lied, and Putin already made the plan to annex this land back in 2014 as there is no pathway in Minsk-2 that would allow LNR and DNR to get hold on all Donbas. Putin lied, and fooled every other signatory and the world.
https://www.rbc.ru/politics/22/02/2022/6214bd799a79479f23f8100d
Excellent. Saved me writing some of the same stuff. I would only add that Yanukovych was offfered a power-sharing agreement in mid-Fevruary 2014, to stay in office and hold an election in December. He accepted and then began to run away, first to Kharkiv, then to Crimea and finally to Rostov. CCTV recordings showed that he had been packing up to leave his mansion with the golden toilets some time before that. Where's the violence, pray tell? Yanukovych was simply a coward who wet his pants and nearly passed out when some kid threw an egg at him during a campaign stop back in 2004.
You can see online about the violence, Maidan, and such related, in relation to Yanukovich. Btw, I'm glad I voted for Obama in 2008. 2012 was neutral, I didn't vote. Glad I voted for Trump in 2016 and 2020. And, I hope Vivek keeps on track, I think he'd make a great POTUS for the USA, and for the effect worldwide.
I don't need to look online to see what happened on the Maidan because I was there. That's why your regurgitated russian propaganda doesn't cut it. The violence that launched the Maidan took place on November 30, 2013, when Berkut riot police came in the middle of the night and started randomly beating up young people who were hanging out on the main square minding their own business. Even some foreign journalists were beaten up. The net result of that was that on December 8, nearly 2 million Ukrainians turned out in force.
The killings on February 20 were by Alfa forces at the behest of Yanuovych.
As to Vivek, I'm not surprised he appeals to you as Mr. Mini-Trump. lol
Violent behaviors are what apparently prompted the shooting-killings.
Do you feel the Ashli Babbitt shooting-death by the U.S.-Govt.-representative was just?
The big LOL is the Democrat Party Platform.
I wasn't at Maidan, I'm glad you have first hand experience, apparently.
Maidan is reminiscent of January 6, which apparently was prodded on by the Democrat Party in sly manner.
The perspective you're sharing is a Western perspective.
Ukraine was a republic within the USSR, with Russia being the main authority of the USSR.
Land was given to Ukraine by Russia within the context of the USSR, - without sovereign separateness of the modern era.
Also, the re-annexed regions weren't part of Ukraine prior to the 1700's.
This Timothy Snyder blog is a DemocratPartyPlatform(DPP) echo chamber, ridiculously so.
The DPP is responsible for the lax immigration management / laxity at the border, and, greater disunity/chaos,…. within the USA and the world.
Make All Countries Great,…. each in their own positive ways.
Appreciate and uphold indigenous development and integrity.
Those who have adequate power to do so, sustainably so, have the means to make things happen as they see appropriate, hopefully within good reason.
If a major power is stepping outside of its bounds, other powers will intertvene. It's a matter of perspective.
Your ignorance and bias are quite revealing. The USSR, not the Russian SFSR, handed Crimea over to the Ukrainian SSR because it was a white elephant that the RSFSR didn't want to deal with: an arid peninsula surrounded by salt water to which it had no land connection. At the time, no one knew that the Black Sea shelf around the peninsula had hefty deposits of natural gas. Ukrainians then built all the basic infrastructure, including canals to provide potable water in the early 1960s. In the 2000s, independent Ukraine gave licenses to various domestic and foreign companies to explore the shelf and they discovered deposits that would have made Ukraine independent of Russia for natural gas. As to the invasion of the Donbas, there just happens to be a huge shale gas field running from Sloviansk to Kharkiv. That's all anyone needs to know about the Putin lie about "saving Russian speakers."
If you prefer to believe Putin's propaganda, that's your right, but don't claim that any of it is based on facts.
Lidia, “Scott” wrote the exact same thing to me, verbatim. He is just using cut and paste propaganda here.
I reported it to Substack. A troll, needless to say.
Yes, I pasted it once, and you got it. You're great! I want to make sure were all getting good share. I care. You are a special person :)
Clarity: I believe Russia sees the re-annexed portions as prime real estate, valuable to Russia.
Russia doesn't want those lands going under the jurisdiction of the West by way of Ukraine.
Get off the DPP'r narrative.
(DemocratPartyPlatform/Perspective).
Russia has no right to desire/annex Ukraine RE. It isn't any party perspective, it is the UN charter perspective, supported by United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4
The resolution was passed with an overwhelming vote of 143 in favour, 5 against and 35 abstaining.
Even more countries voted supporting this resolution than against the invasion just because all countries recognize the need to upheld the international law re. lands ownership/borders as they are mutually recognized in the UN registry. There are literally hundreds of the frozen territorial conflicts in the world that could go off if Russia is allowed to annex the land as the precedent is set.
Btw,… go visit Russia, and enjoy,…..and don't be an ugly American while you're there,…. if you can.
Your ignorant on this. Russia was the primary authority within the USSR, and I understand it was the USSR which handed Crimea to Ukrainian SSR.
And, are you familiar with the Isthmus of Perekop, - that connects Crimea to Ukraine.
Btw, I've visited Crimea four times, twice in 2015, once in 2017, and once in 2018. Interesting place, and some great beautifulness there too,… and it's got some shabbyness too,…. so does the USA.
Btw, I also visited Sochi last March. Nice visit. I've been to Ukraine too, a couple times, over the past 7 years. Fair enough, interesting to see and experience some.
You are Russian. It isn't a problem per se aside that you don't have guts to be honest.
The USSR being ruled by Russia is a common knowledge fact. Most USSR republics were taken in and kept there by force, with Russia's taking advantage of them. The USSR giving Crimea to Ukraine doesn't change a thing as Russia agreed with that ownership by signing numerous agreements.
I gave you the factual answers to many of your erroneous claims, not the perspective. If you have any objection to my answers, please go ahead debunk me, or f/o
"the re-annexed regions weren't part of Ukraine prior to the 1700's." it doesn't matter because they weren't part of Russia either. There was no Russia.
What important, they were part of Ukraine in 1945 when the UN was created., in 1994 when the Budapest Memorandum was signed and in 1997, when the Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership between Ukraine and the Russian Federation was signed affirming the recognition of the inviolability of existing borders.
None of those agreements had any clause that would render them invalid based on the political landscape in the countries. Russia signed those agreements with the full understanding of the history of Russian Empire and the USSR. If it wanted out of agreements, it had to re-negotiate.
Attacking Timothy Snyder personally doesn't help to your credibility either. And btw, Russia is stepping outside of its bounds if you fail to see the irony of your post.
Oh, and you seem to have missed the fact that Crimeans voted 53% (55% in Sevastopol) to go with independent Ukraine on Dec. 1, 1991. The pseudo referendum in 2014 did not offer the option of keeping status quo as an autonomous republic within Ukraine. Needless to say, turnout was 32% and less than half voted to go with Russia. Of course, later on the "official" figure tor turnout in Sevastopol was reported as 123%. lol
This is just a cut and paste of what you said to me. More proof that you work for Putin and have been given a set of pre-written talking points to insert in select venues that you’re being paid to infiltrate.
Your history of Ukraine is very shoddy. The entire western part of Ukraine, including the city of Lviv ( formerly called Lemberg) was never part of Russia until the Soviets seized it. That area, called Galicia, had been part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire for hundreds of years, as far back as the Empress Maria Theresa. My Ukrainian grandparents in Lemberg had to learn German in school, not Russian! They spoke Ukrainian at home.
And Putin's story of Russians being descended from the Kyivan Rus is fantasy.
The Vikings found their way down the Dnipro & established a settlement at Kyiv around 1000. At that point Moscow did not even exist.
Putin always conveniently forgets to mention that most Russians are actually descended from the Mongols, whose Golden Horde invaded & took over all of today's Russia around 1240.
The riots were violent, and were part of the ousting of Yanukovich.
There is no reason to place the responsibility for the violence on protesters.
Protests in Ukraine’s capital, Kyiv, against Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych’s decision, by Putin's request, to reject a deal for greater economic integration with the European Union (EU) were met with a violent crackdown by state security forces.
HRMMU (United Nations Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine) notes that many of the identified alleged perpetrators fled to the Russian Federation, where they found refuge. According to the Prosecutor General’s Office, the Russian Federation granted citizenship to 18 former police officers suspected of killing protesters and a number of former senior officials suspected of organizing such killings.
A recent development:
Ukrainian court sentences ex-police officers over 2014 Maidan shootings
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-court-sentences-ex-police-officers-over-2014-maidan-shootings-2023-10-18/
Reuters October 18, 2023
You're sounding like a stereotypical 'emotional' DPPr. To retort to you: It's a certainty 'Trump'/USA won't annex Canada. And so you're being sarcastic, fine.
The long intimacy of Russia including with 'ownership' of the recently re-annexed lands of Crimea and Donbas region, over the past 200+ years, and, the matter of neighborhood, who's boss, and, world-power-polarity issues,….. is the reason the Donbas region and Crimea will remain with Russia,….. basically by whatever force necessary, so that those lands don't go under the jurisdiction of The West, by way of Ukraine. It's about particular real estate, and who's going to control it, first of all.
If that's not accepted by The West, and The West continues with the warring against that position,…. the war will be ongoing.
Meanwhile,…. Ukrainians continue living their lives in Ukraine in most of Ukraine.
You keep repeating your main idea that Russia will annex the land back just because of its imperial idea that it has a right to its former lands, regardless of numerous agreements it signed and its membership in UN/UNSC that declares its principles as a mutual recognition of the land ownership - which Russia has done and hasn't tried to change. Instead of proceeding with the illegal invasion. Is this your main position - that might is right and any country with the nukes/stronger can annex the RE it considers beneficial to control under various reasons?
If that is the case, what do you base your assertion on that the US wouldn't have the same aspiration re. Canada being a land corridor to Alaska, or having the abundant fresh water supply or the Northwestern Passages - they are part of Canadian Internal Waters and as climate changes they are getting open as the ice is receding, while Panama channel is drying out and the Red Sea is becoming not safe for a transit of goods.
Or the US could annex Cuba for example, why not? it is in its backyard and Russia is very active there recently.
None of what you said justifies Putin's war but merely supports the overall notion that Putin's invasion is imperialistic in its nature and illegal. You are very correctly placing his main notion as first. In Putin's mafia world "the bigger dog" has a right to subjugate the smaller and to destroy it, if it is resisting to be enslaved.
I''ll use use the quote from this article we are reading: "Most of what Putin says about the past is ludicrous; but even had he said some true things, that would not justify destroying the international order, invading neighbours, and committing genocide. "
And now I will briefly address Putin's arguments below, just for fun.
Galicia was a region in eastern Europe where most of today's western Ukraine, including the city of Lviv, is located. In those days Lviv was called Lemberg. Galicia was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire for hundreds of years, as far back as the Empress Maria Teresa. After WW I & Austria-Hungary lost the war, people in the Ukrainian part of Galicia tried to have the Versailles Treaty declare Galicia a Ukrainian homeland. But, instead the treaty gave it to the newly independent Poland, & Lemberg's name was changed to Lwow.
My maternal Ukrainian grandparents grew up in Lemberg, in Galicia. In school they had to learn German, though at home they spoke Ukrainian. This area of Ukraine was never part of Russia until the Soviets seized it.
Interestingly, if today you fly from Munich, Germany to Lviv, Ukraine, the airport screens identify your destination as Lemberg. Another interesting fact: Two important Jewish Ukrainians studied law in Lemberg and made very important contributions to our international law in times of war: Raphael Lemkin, who coined the word "Genocide" in 1945, & Hersch Lauterpacht, who coined the phrase "Crimes against humanity" in 1946. Lauterpacht also served as a lawyer at the Nuremberg Trials.
Philippe Sands has written a wonderful book about both men, entitled "East West Street".
Thanks. I'm somewhat familiar about western Ukraine and the Poland/Polish link/connection.
Btw, what do you think about religious/religion-nationalism?
I suppose Prof. Snyer tolerates Putin-Propaganda trolls on his page, knowing that the majority here does not fall for it.
Your statement above is a troll statement, so, you're a troll.
I'm here for constructive counter points to your echo chamber on this forum.
But you are not providing any constructive counterpoints, no facts, but the idea that Russia should be allowed to annex Ukraine land just because it wants and can, i.e. might is right which is illegal and has no precedent since the UN creation.
All your ramblings about Russian empire owning the lands between 300-100 years ago are nullified by the fact Ukraine owning the lands for the last 100 years, being an original UN founding member with that land, in 1945 and by Russia agreeing the lands belong to Ukraine under numerous agreements it signed, incl. the UN mutual recognition procedure.
NATO, Maidan, Yanukovych arguments are irrelevant as not only Russia is involved in those subjects even more than the US, none of it gives Russia any formal right to claim the lands. Russia is the UNSC member. If it disagrees with the main UN principles of the territorial integrity of all members based on the mutual recognition, it is more then welcome to vacate the seat.
They are constructive counterpoints, if you understand political and social dynamics.
In your 2nd paragraph: the 100 years of 'legal' ownership doesn't null the 300 to 100, given the context of the USSR frame, and the matter of world-power-polarity issues.
NATO, Maidan, Yanukovich are fully relevant on the matters.
Again, neighborhood, history, politics, and social factors.
This is not all about law and formal agreements.
I'm here to present a reasonable realistic counterpoint,…. given this DPP / Timothy Snyder echo chamber.
The difference between now and then is this:
Out of the latest 100, 80 years of Ukraine ownership followed the UN creation and Russia signing agreements that it recognizes Ukraine ownership. The UN was created specifically address territorial disputes.
NATO, Maidan, Yanukovich are fully irrelevant to the matter of the land ownership. If you have any idea how, please elaborate.
It is all about the law and formal agreements that Russia is violating. If Russia wants to disregard the UN rules it is more than welcome to vacate the UNSC seat.
Your so called " realistic point of view" is just the assertion that might is right, agreements doesn't matter and Russia can't be trusted. It is a street gang rule. Be intellectually honest, admit that you are Russian, ashamed of your nationality and that you are advocating for abolishing the UN, cooperation between the countries based on the mutual recognition and international agreements and support "might is right" mode of action.
You’re correct that this is the narrative, or story, from the POV of Putin. Nevertheless, there are things that aren’t entirely true, for example numbers 3 and 9. And in any event, the rest of the narrative doesn’t justify the violent effort to reattach Ukraine to Russia. It wasn’t part of Russia prior to the 1700’s and became free and independent in 1990. Crimea officially became part of Ukraine in 1954, under the Soviet Union, and remained part of free and independent Ukraine until 2014. Just because Putin doesn’t like what happened and still considers the breakup of the USSR to be the “worst geopolitical catastrophe in history”, that doesn’t mean he or Russia has the right to “take it back”.
FWIW, this is a perfect and concise outline of the argument that everyone opposed to our aiding Ukraine adheres to. I have seen this narrative repeatedly in the WSJ comments. It also lives in and is quite popular in the comments of Bari Weiss’s The Free Press on Substack. One sees it occasionally even in opinion pieces in the WSJ. The fact that people like Mearsheimer adhere to it makes it all that much worse.
The perspective you're sharing is a Western perspective.
Ukraine was a republic within the USSR, with Russia being the main authority of the USSR.
Land was given to Ukraine by Russia within the context of the USSR, - without sovereign separateness of the modern era.
Also, the re-annexed regions weren't part of Ukraine prior to the 1700's.
This Timothy Snyder blog is a DemocratPartyPlatform(DPP) echo chamber, ridiculously so.
The DPP is responsible for the lax immigration management / laxity at the border, and, greater disunity/chaos,…. within the USA and the world.
Make All Countries Great,…. each in their own positive ways.
Appreciate and uphold indigenous development and integrity.
Those who have adequate power to do so, sustainably so, have the means to make things happen as they see appropriate, hopefully within good reason.
If a major power is stepping outside of its bounds, other powers will intertvene. It's a matter of perspective.
Aha! You reveal yourself Scott! Have you read the books in Snyder’s bibliography? Timothy Snyder is a Yale history professor who’s been studying this stuff his entire career. For my part, I was a Republican from 1974 until Jan 7, 2021. I left the GOP as a direct result of Jan 6th. And I almost exclusively voted Republican during that time (but I voted for Hillary in 2016 and Biden in 2020, for the main reason of keeping Donald Trump out of the White House). So don’t go accusing me of being part of a Democratic Party deep state conspiracy.
There was a time when the GOP knew and understood the threat that Russia has always been for democracy and freedom. The sudden love fest for Putin defies explanation. You, Scott, are either on Putin’s payroll or Donald Trump’s. Stop being a blind fool and read the history. Those books Snyder cited go back 30 years some of them. I highly doubt that the Democratic Party has been plotting against Putin and for Ukraine all that time. But the MAGA cult could easily be led in that direction. My personal guess is that you are a Russian.
I guess you think if you post the same comment over & over it will win you more converts to your side?
No, false. I was sharing with people make similar points, true. You're a smarty ;) Two copy-pastes of my post to different people,….. 'call out the enforcers!'
Most of what you posted is spun or an outright lie in line with the Kremlin Gremlin's propaganda. Try again but first check the facts.
Wow.
Yeah, wow.
This article brought to my mind this proverb: "TRUTH does not happen, it just is."
Native American Proverb
Tour de force, Professor Snyder. We have to hope that truth is greater, and will prevail.
There is natural justice.
If historical boundiaries and ethnicities had any relationship to current nation states, it would be interesting for Tucker to interview Americas indigenous leaders to get their views. Tucker Carlson should be taken seriously about nothing, as also should Putin. It is a disservice to humanity and decency to give either the time and space to express their views on any topic at all.
Since Americans generally give no consideration to indigenous claims of territory, I have tried to explain Russia’s claim to Ukraine as similar to Mexico trying to reclaim the Southwest - that because Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California were originally part of Mexico, and even note that many residents of those states still speak Spanish, those territories still belong to Mexico. So Mexico has the right to fight to reclaim them.
Except that Mexico doesn’t have the right to reclaim those lands, and Russia doesn’t have the right to reclaim Ukraine. The parallel history argument is correct, but neither one leads to a “right to reclaim”. Indeed, I have made the same argument to people who side with Russia having a right to Ukraine. When I ask them if they would be okay with Mexico reclaiming the southwestern part of the United States, they always back down and shut up.
Exactly!
100%!
With alternative facts as the guiding light of the GOP I’m not confident that republicans want to learn anything about history. I mean they’re on a crusade to snuff out all American history that offends them. Thank you Professors Snyder for educating us and keeping the faith that sooner than later the truth will emerge.
Putin makes the same mistakes about history as do most Americans, myself included. Perhaps the Russian trolls monitoring this Substack could suggest that he inform himself by taking Professor Snyder's course, as I did.
I don’t think Comrade Putin speaks English?!
I’m sure he does but as usual chose not to. Not only did tuckums have to sit through putin’s BS but the translation as well. I’m certain his ass was quite chapped at the end of it all and for once, that perpetually confused look on his face was well-earned for once.
Putin regularly used German and English during his past career in the KGB, when he was stationed in Dresden in what was then East Germany during the 80s. It is understood his ability to speak the language improved as a result of his friendship with former German chancellor Gerhard.
List the mistakes, drive home the key points. Repetition.
It should be obvious that when you write, "On Putin's logic, leaders anywhere can make endless claims to territory based on various interpretations of the past," we are now living in a country where a substantial number of national figures and institutions (e.g. the Supreme Court, and all the MAGA Republicans) are making endless substantial claims to our psychologic and economic territory based on fabulated interpretations of the past. Thus preparing for..............
We are so fortunate you are here for us. Tremendous article
Awesome essay! It is so important to keep stressing well-founded facts and not be terrorized by the totalitarian power Putin exercises ... I wish the focus could move to what will happen inside Russia
🙏 I’ve been waiting for this exact post since learning “the tuck” was going to interview Putin. How many Americans will believe the lies and fantasies?
I keep coming back to this question: “Why are the Russians so _________. Thats a hard one for non historians to even begin to answer. Some of it starts with the end of WW2. How many Russian people died/were killed during WW2? Compare that to the US and something should click.
What a horrible way for the Tuck to make a living. He should know better. He disqualifies himself as a journalist imho.
In my own curiosity, I came across this article by a graduate student researching memory laws and Putin’s role as the ceremonial head of Russian revisionist history education. It’s a quick and easy read substackers may find valuable.
https://daviscenter.fas.harvard.edu/insights/childhood-under-siege-evolution-world-war-ii-education-russian-memory-politics
And do we think the US dumbing down of our public educational/textbook/online/mass media/book banning Republican regime has learned one thing well - yes the Putin educational process.
Thank you for the link.
Thank you so much for this critical distillation of a history that many of us are not well versed in and that a profound number of world occupants no nothing about (thinking of our US citizens/electorate/tfg/Republican politicians). Worst of all is how history and truth has been bastardized throughout the ages for power, wealth and now media popularity with the slaughter of millions now and throughout time.
No, we do not learn anything from history….
The cost of these propagandists’ lies is dire. History has told us so.
Excellent thank you
using reason and facts regarding history with Putin is like disabusing a person with a delusion - doesn't go anywhere; instead, validate his reality with a, here's the deal approach - although as he's bona fide sociopath, i'm hard pressed to come up with something that would result in changed behavior - perhaps someone who knows him well would be able to leverage his unremitting nihilism
Guys like KGB/Stasi Putin need to be deprogrammed.