Today we speak of Poland and Ukraine as countries. As Professor Snyder points out, this has not been the case for much of the past 400 years. On occasion Poland disappeared, then a small portion of Poland would reemerge, perhaps to disappear again.
During WW II German and the Soviet Union divided much of ‘Poland.’ General Bor’s uprising in 1944 was a recent Soviet effort to ‘rearrange’ Poland. The Danzig corridor was returned to Poland from Germany after WW II. Poland did not have an easy re-emergence as the Cold War was ending.
Ukraine has an equally topsy-turvy heritage.
I wonder how Polish and Ukrainian citizens are taught and feel about their history?
As a child of the post-war diaspora in Australia I learned Ukrainian written language, folk-dancing. Whilst in primary school i entered a Best Doll competition. The doll was outfitted in Ukrainian national dress made by mother and it won first prize. I was the only post-war migrant in my school at the time. As a young adult I enjoyed being in a Ukrainian National choir where we performed with a Ukrainian folk dance ensemble. In church (Uniate rite) nationalist themes were often discussed after the sermon but details went above my head. Having majored in History and being a longtime reader of history, I have "caught up" on my Ukrainian history. Professor Snyder's books have been the best ones for background and content. Many Ukrainian Australians
have visited Ukraine to connect with their ancestral home.
I lived in Stockholm, Sweden when the iron curtain fell and the East Europeans and Russians escaped to the West. Many Poles now live and work abroad. Many in construction and hospitality.
Kirsten I remember how Sweden surreptitiously provided massive aid to Finland during the Mannerheim years.
I recall that many Poles worked in England before Brexit. Post-Brexit proved bad both for the Brits and for these Polish workers, many of whom have gone home.
"Who wouldn’t want to be able to live and work in 28 countries?"
Erm... in the UK in 2016, 52% of the population did not want to live and work in 27 other countries of the EU. Surely you are not trying to equate your "Comrade Putin" with these Brits?
Kirsten The British often claimed that they were of but not in Europe.
They lost their empire, gingerly edged into the European Union, and now have ‘Borised’ out of it.
I feel sorry for my British relatives. The song goes “There will always be an England”—but ever smaller and less significant. One might say a ‘deGaulling experience.’
"The British often claimed that they were of but not in Europe.
They lost their empire, gingerly edged into the European Union, and now have ‘Borised’ out of it.
This might be more precise if you had said:
"The British lost their empire, gingerly edged into the European Union, and now the English have 'Borised' out of it."
The Scots voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU. It has been, and continues to be, an unfortunate habit of the English to equate their own tribal identity with Great Britain as a whole.
The distinction is important because, notwithstanding the UK's great contribution to Ukraine in the form of the substantial arms supplies it has speedily sent their way, under the surface the English battle with themselves to overcome their imperialist attitudes continues unabated. They are still far from being able to see their own ingrained sense of cultural superiority, deep-seated racism, hierarchical authoritarianism as expressed in the rigid class system, and conservative sectarianism in the form of the established Anglican Church.
Very good arguments can be made that a goodly proportion of the English people is still essentially tribal, and hence pre-democratic, in its underlying outlook and beliefs—this notwithstanding Great Britain's international reputation for being an exemplar in the democracy stakes.
It is in this respect that some disturbing parallels can be drawn between the Brexity English/Boris Johnson, Trump and Putin. But it is important to speak here specifically of the English, not the entire inhabitants of the British Isles and Ireland.
One can even ask to what extent the UK's arms supplies to Ukraine might be an unconscious expression of the English people's unrepentant and as yet unregenerate imperialistic urges—no longer restricted to endless replays of Dad's Army, here at last is a concrete way in which the English can actually manifest their supposed Global Greatness. While it is possible to overdo this line of analysis, in the case of Boris Johnson in particular, it is easy to see his rush to claim the moral high ground in relation to Ukraine as a natural expression of his unexamined Englishness—"Make England great again! Send in the army, chaps! Reach for those sunlit uplands that were always rightfully ours!"
Disclosure: I am English, so am allowed to criticise...
One genuinely creative addition to the English language that must be attributed to the English genius: "I woke up feeling Brexity this morning!"
Penelope My mother was British—raised in Egypt where her dad was Director of Customs in the Anglo-Egyptian Protectorate, but was born in Scotland. An uncle in the 7th Hussars was captured on reconnaissance at el Alemain. I was accepted at Eton, but I insisted that I wanted to be an American boy and refused to go. My other British uncle, a colonel in a Yorkshire regiment, after I wrote NASSER’S NEW EGYPT: A CRITICAL ANALYSIS (1960 NY, London) wondered why anyone would spend time with ‘those wogs.’
August 1975 was a momentous moment for me. I had created international bond ratings and had specialized in sovereign ratings. At the Bank of England I explained why I would block England tfrom issuing bonds on the New York market (years before Maggie Thatcher). When someone noted that I had rated France Aaa, I offered to explain the differences. They demurred.
Under the circumstances I thought it not advisable to point out that in the former colonies we had pencils with the erasers attached.
Incidentally, I would stay at the Connaught. While British investment bankers seldom rushed to their offices, when I invited them to breakfast at the Connaught, they came with alacrity. I could almost hearing them say “My dear, I’m off to the Connaught.”
I remember going into the back office of Barclays Bank with my dad in 1949. It was a Dickensonian environment. In 1974 the chief financial officer of Courtauld’s looked much the same, with a large stool and green eyeshade. I must preferred the Courtauld modern art gallery.
As for the Foreign Office, during my Middle East days—-I remember sitting in an overstuffed chair and being goosed by a loose spring. Rule Britannia indeed.
Kirsten I recall that the Cossacks danced well and killed brutally. Ike was subjected to their dancing when he visited General Zhukov after WW II ended in Europe.
I found your lecture immensely rewarding, as well, definitions of darkness and how it exists. Should not the word be 'stories' and not 'myths'? Referring to volume 1 'The Making of Modern Ukraine', as my studies with Dara Marks in writing are that myths have value, universality, in fact derive from centuries of oral tradition. Indigeneous Traditional Knowledge is an example of this. Excluding deep memory is a colonial aspect of control. "And just as stories that find their tellers, the expression across species diversifies itself by thinking in the consciousness of all beings. One need only keep company with coyotes, wolves, or foxes to know this with certainty. Yet as the experience of biodiversity wanes, so wanes the capacity for thinking with nature and beyond species-specific consciousness." "Conversely, mythology is instructive in its ethic of keeping the past through the future. Imagination as normatively conceived and promoted today coaxes humanity toward a future unrelated to Elders and living knowledge of the life of the past to guide the future. Perhaps worst, aberrant imagination conducts itself as self-induced ecological amnesia while mythology articulates the story everything tells to everyone. Mythology is imaginary only to modernity. Aberrant imagination, modernity's best loved version, is antithetical to the very future it invisions."
Joe Sheridan and Roronhiakewen ‘He Clears the Sky’ Dan Longboat. (2006). “The Haudenosaunee Imagination and the Ecology of the Sacred” in Space and Culture, 9, 4, pp. 365-381.
Today we speak of Poland and Ukraine as countries. As Professor Snyder points out, this has not been the case for much of the past 400 years. On occasion Poland disappeared, then a small portion of Poland would reemerge, perhaps to disappear again.
During WW II German and the Soviet Union divided much of ‘Poland.’ General Bor’s uprising in 1944 was a recent Soviet effort to ‘rearrange’ Poland. The Danzig corridor was returned to Poland from Germany after WW II. Poland did not have an easy re-emergence as the Cold War was ending.
Ukraine has an equally topsy-turvy heritage.
I wonder how Polish and Ukrainian citizens are taught and feel about their history?
As a child of the post-war diaspora in Australia I learned Ukrainian written language, folk-dancing. Whilst in primary school i entered a Best Doll competition. The doll was outfitted in Ukrainian national dress made by mother and it won first prize. I was the only post-war migrant in my school at the time. As a young adult I enjoyed being in a Ukrainian National choir where we performed with a Ukrainian folk dance ensemble. In church (Uniate rite) nationalist themes were often discussed after the sermon but details went above my head. Having majored in History and being a longtime reader of history, I have "caught up" on my Ukrainian history. Professor Snyder's books have been the best ones for background and content. Many Ukrainian Australians
have visited Ukraine to connect with their ancestral home.
I lived in Stockholm, Sweden when the iron curtain fell and the East Europeans and Russians escaped to the West. Many Poles now live and work abroad. Many in construction and hospitality.
Kirsten I remember how Sweden surreptitiously provided massive aid to Finland during the Mannerheim years.
I recall that many Poles worked in England before Brexit. Post-Brexit proved bad both for the Brits and for these Polish workers, many of whom have gone home.
Brexit is bad for everybody. Who wouldn’t want to be able to live and work in 28 countries? Comrade Putin, of course …
"Who wouldn’t want to be able to live and work in 28 countries?"
Erm... in the UK in 2016, 52% of the population did not want to live and work in 27 other countries of the EU. Surely you are not trying to equate your "Comrade Putin" with these Brits?
Kirsten The British often claimed that they were of but not in Europe.
They lost their empire, gingerly edged into the European Union, and now have ‘Borised’ out of it.
I feel sorry for my British relatives. The song goes “There will always be an England”—but ever smaller and less significant. One might say a ‘deGaulling experience.’
Many Brits went to EU countries after Brexit and sought citizenship in order to be able to work abroad. Putin’s plan is to divide EU.
"The British often claimed that they were of but not in Europe.
They lost their empire, gingerly edged into the European Union, and now have ‘Borised’ out of it.
This might be more precise if you had said:
"The British lost their empire, gingerly edged into the European Union, and now the English have 'Borised' out of it."
The Scots voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU. It has been, and continues to be, an unfortunate habit of the English to equate their own tribal identity with Great Britain as a whole.
The distinction is important because, notwithstanding the UK's great contribution to Ukraine in the form of the substantial arms supplies it has speedily sent their way, under the surface the English battle with themselves to overcome their imperialist attitudes continues unabated. They are still far from being able to see their own ingrained sense of cultural superiority, deep-seated racism, hierarchical authoritarianism as expressed in the rigid class system, and conservative sectarianism in the form of the established Anglican Church.
Very good arguments can be made that a goodly proportion of the English people is still essentially tribal, and hence pre-democratic, in its underlying outlook and beliefs—this notwithstanding Great Britain's international reputation for being an exemplar in the democracy stakes.
It is in this respect that some disturbing parallels can be drawn between the Brexity English/Boris Johnson, Trump and Putin. But it is important to speak here specifically of the English, not the entire inhabitants of the British Isles and Ireland.
One can even ask to what extent the UK's arms supplies to Ukraine might be an unconscious expression of the English people's unrepentant and as yet unregenerate imperialistic urges—no longer restricted to endless replays of Dad's Army, here at last is a concrete way in which the English can actually manifest their supposed Global Greatness. While it is possible to overdo this line of analysis, in the case of Boris Johnson in particular, it is easy to see his rush to claim the moral high ground in relation to Ukraine as a natural expression of his unexamined Englishness—"Make England great again! Send in the army, chaps! Reach for those sunlit uplands that were always rightfully ours!"
Disclosure: I am English, so am allowed to criticise...
One genuinely creative addition to the English language that must be attributed to the English genius: "I woke up feeling Brexity this morning!"
Penelope My mother was British—raised in Egypt where her dad was Director of Customs in the Anglo-Egyptian Protectorate, but was born in Scotland. An uncle in the 7th Hussars was captured on reconnaissance at el Alemain. I was accepted at Eton, but I insisted that I wanted to be an American boy and refused to go. My other British uncle, a colonel in a Yorkshire regiment, after I wrote NASSER’S NEW EGYPT: A CRITICAL ANALYSIS (1960 NY, London) wondered why anyone would spend time with ‘those wogs.’
August 1975 was a momentous moment for me. I had created international bond ratings and had specialized in sovereign ratings. At the Bank of England I explained why I would block England tfrom issuing bonds on the New York market (years before Maggie Thatcher). When someone noted that I had rated France Aaa, I offered to explain the differences. They demurred.
Under the circumstances I thought it not advisable to point out that in the former colonies we had pencils with the erasers attached.
Incidentally, I would stay at the Connaught. While British investment bankers seldom rushed to their offices, when I invited them to breakfast at the Connaught, they came with alacrity. I could almost hearing them say “My dear, I’m off to the Connaught.”
I remember going into the back office of Barclays Bank with my dad in 1949. It was a Dickensonian environment. In 1974 the chief financial officer of Courtauld’s looked much the same, with a large stool and green eyeshade. I must preferred the Courtauld modern art gallery.
As for the Foreign Office, during my Middle East days—-I remember sitting in an overstuffed chair and being goosed by a loose spring. Rule Britannia indeed.
Amazing dancers with swords ⚔️
"Dance of the Cossacks" - The Alexandrov Red Army Ensemble (1965) - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g1UMDTo154
Kirsten I recall that the Cossacks danced well and killed brutally. Ike was subjected to their dancing when he visited General Zhukov after WW II ended in Europe.
I’m sure glad the Cossacks didn’t live in my neighborhood 😄
I found your lecture immensely rewarding, as well, definitions of darkness and how it exists. Should not the word be 'stories' and not 'myths'? Referring to volume 1 'The Making of Modern Ukraine', as my studies with Dara Marks in writing are that myths have value, universality, in fact derive from centuries of oral tradition. Indigeneous Traditional Knowledge is an example of this. Excluding deep memory is a colonial aspect of control. "And just as stories that find their tellers, the expression across species diversifies itself by thinking in the consciousness of all beings. One need only keep company with coyotes, wolves, or foxes to know this with certainty. Yet as the experience of biodiversity wanes, so wanes the capacity for thinking with nature and beyond species-specific consciousness." "Conversely, mythology is instructive in its ethic of keeping the past through the future. Imagination as normatively conceived and promoted today coaxes humanity toward a future unrelated to Elders and living knowledge of the life of the past to guide the future. Perhaps worst, aberrant imagination conducts itself as self-induced ecological amnesia while mythology articulates the story everything tells to everyone. Mythology is imaginary only to modernity. Aberrant imagination, modernity's best loved version, is antithetical to the very future it invisions."
Joe Sheridan and Roronhiakewen ‘He Clears the Sky’ Dan Longboat. (2006). “The Haudenosaunee Imagination and the Ecology of the Sacred” in Space and Culture, 9, 4, pp. 365-381.