I am a great admirer of you (I was an intensive history major Y’55) and Tony Judt. We tend to take WW I or WW II as the start of the reshuffling of the European nationhood board. ‘Ukraine’ has a checkered history from the early days of Kyiv and Rus.
In fact, one needs to go back 500+/- years (or the ‘Dark Ages’) and follow THE LONDON TIMES historical maps of the world. Indeed, I have just watched Robert Greenberg’s (GREAT COURSES) magnificent MUSIC AS A MIRROR OF HISTORY. With extraordinary research of letters and other memorabilia, Dr. Greenberg provides a beautiful historical ballad, with substance sautéed with superb soul.
He provides, to this history professor (1992-2013), a fresh and persuasive insight into the European checkerboard over the past 500 years. Poland?? It was drawn and quartered, and then scotch taped together, far more than pulled pork. Czechoslovakia? Who remembered that 1905 was a pivotal moment in its history? Or the 17th century? What does it mean to be a ‘Czech,’ after Sudetenland in 1938 and the Czech Slovak split in 1991?
As for Italy—-what was Italy when the French arrived and left? How did Napoleon ravage Italy? Cavour and Garibaldi?
Russia seemed like an accordion—shrinking, expanding, a super expansion, and then a post-Soviet Union shrinking. The Baltic states were integral to this musical performance.
All this reinforces—-while Americans, with the exception of the Civil War, have never experienced permanent divisions in the lands acquired over centuries— that Europe has been an historical chessboard with pieces frequently replaced. One might speak of the relative ‘wholeness” of the United Kingdom since the 1707 Scottish agreement, though contemporaries are concerned about the future of Scotland and, perhaps, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Indeed, there was a time when this island nation was physically part of the European continent and elephants were roaming on this locale. Hadrian was a late comer.
Dr.Snyder, do you think WWIII can really be avoided? It seems if Putin continues his war on Ukraine, whether a good idea or not, there are only two outcomes: Ukraine is completely wiped out or WWIII begins. What is any other outcome? Americans need to start climbing on board more quickly with the problem in Ukraine.
I wish there was video with it too. It's easier for me to follow when there is also video. But it's very interesting as always thank you Dr.Snyder.
Thank you for this excellent clarification of empire as the principle for understanding European wars. I feel vindicated in my belief, since day one of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, they have to be defeated. I would also love to hear you explain why Sweden (im Swedish) and the rest of The Nordics want to be European! Is it that Sweden was an empire of sorts until 1632, got defeated and realized that other ways of operation would be more beneficial (they are)?
The contention that integration comes from compensatory action to address decline from losing empires (through defeat in wars) although is well argued, I would suggest that the key word here is 'decline'. Talking of losing empires connects integration theory to the world history of empires -- but this is a moot point. 'DECLINE' -- whatever reason this happened -- for empires and non-empires [not all EU members lost empires, did they? some lost a few colonies, but hardly empires that gave them advantages] was the driving force for integration. Trade was important not because it was pacifying, but it allowed growth and reversed decline.
A REQUEST FOR BETTER SOUND, IF THAT'S POSSIBLE, PLEASE, DR SNYDER...
Your voice kept oscillating between close and audible, and then distant and barely audible, as if you had turned away from the mike.
Added to that, as you turned away, you seemed to drop your voice and rush the end of the sentence, so that it became actually inaudible.
I have listened twice, and didn’t do any better on the second try.
Also, those of us listening from overseas, or who have English as a second language, probably have more difficulty than those familiar with the accent and speech tones.
You may find it of interest that as an Australian/UK English speaker, I find you speak so fast I have to literally grit my teeth and strain to hold maximum concentration for an hour! There's no three-second out-times at the end of key points for us to detach then reconnect. I know Americans tend to speak faster, but are you faster even than the American average? Are you trying to fit in the maximum in the time available? Or, once you start, does it just keep coming in a single stream of consciousness? I'm interested to know...
Prof. Snyder - These are important ideas to communicate. The sound was so bad that i could not make out everything you said. I think you were getting near and then far from the mike, walking around maybe because you faded in and out. it would be very helpful to have a transcript or a summary of this talk. My takeaway is that this is a war that needs to be fought and Putin must lose it for even Russia to win at all. There is no winning otherwise. I think the Euros need to take that on board perhaps more deeply… as we all do, here too.
More Ukrainians are being killed due to USA military support, which is prolonging the war, … whereas a more peaceful compromise would plausibly-possibly have been achieved a year ago. The USA is prolonging this war.
I'm familiar with Russian history.
There are limits to what is acceptable.
Donbas-Kherson-Crimea are within the limits of acceptability. Beyond that, not much.
Remember, Russia is the big power in that neighborhood. It doesn't want NATO jurisdiction over the prime real-estate of Donbas-Kherson-Crimea, at a minimum, which was part of Russia, the country, from the 1700's till about the start time of the USSR, circa 1917-1922. Russia is insisting on a separate polarity from The West for their space. Russia will also have to compromise with nearby regions. I'm sharing my idea of arbitration to get on with peace,… and respecting multi-polarity of the world, - major powers multi-polarity.
Thanks so much for this presentation! I found it interesting to see in various publications today that russia says Ukraine and others must get on board with a "new world order" - ie, russian spheres of influence regardless of what anyone wants. Appalling of course and so typical. I hope you will at some point say a few things about the meeting between Ukraine and Poland this week. Given their long history I found it all completely fascinating.
Here's how I've understand that Ukraine/Russia neighborhood, based on the history of the region:
Russia had 'Novorossiya' from the late 1700's through till about the USSR, about 1920, which included the Donbas to Crimea region, and some more land around there. Ukraine was a state within the USSR. Russia was/is the most powerful country in that neighborhood. Ukraine was given Crimea within the context of the USSR as a state, not a country.
That's prime real estate. The Donbas was considered a 'heart of Russia'(multiple 'hearts' in Russia btw). The Donbas was a 'wild-fields borderland' of non-nationalists, basically,… besides Ukraine being considered a various 'borderland' per it's name etymology. Russia has had a military base continuously(or nearly so) in Sevastopol since the late 1700's.
The USA meddled in the deposing of Yanukovich who attempted to make a balance with Ukraine, Russia, and the EU.
Ukraine embarked on pushing Russian influence out in favor of the EU. Given the long intimate intertwining of Ukraine and Russia, and the war against the separatists in the Donbas region,….Russia embarked on reclamation of the Crimea and Donbas regions (and through to the south Kherson bank I'd figure).
The Crimea through the Donbas region is prime real estate for Russia,…. Russia won't allow for that region to go under the jurisdiction of The West, by way of Ukraine.
And so, the prudent thing to do is compromise with Russia, to allow Russia that Crimea-Donbas-Kherson region,…. and beyond that Russia will have to make some conscessions with The West/Ukraine/etc.
Let's take the high ground on this in making peace, and respecting Russia's neighborhood space, given Russia's power and history of acquisition.
Sincerely,
Scott
p.s. I'm not a bleeding heart. I seek compromise and peace, giving reasonable respects to all.
Don't know if any of you have seen this. I am so angry right now I'm shaking. From the NYT 4/6/23: "Ukraine War Plans Leak Prompts Pentagon Investigation. Classified documents detailing secret American and NATO plans have appeared on Twitter and Telegram." Smart move on the part of the Ukrainians: "But early on during the war, Ukrainian officials were hesitant about sharing their battle plans with the United States, for fear of leaks." https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/06/us/politics/ukraine-war-plan-russia.html?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
I wonder if the US is an empire that mistakes itself for a nation? I also wonder if nations exist that are not left-overs from defeated empires? It is wonderful to have the chance to consider what I haven't considered before, to feel the imaginative power of Timothy Sander's revisions. He offers an intimacy with historical complexities that is similar to enlightenment.
I am a great admirer of you (I was an intensive history major Y’55) and Tony Judt. We tend to take WW I or WW II as the start of the reshuffling of the European nationhood board. ‘Ukraine’ has a checkered history from the early days of Kyiv and Rus.
In fact, one needs to go back 500+/- years (or the ‘Dark Ages’) and follow THE LONDON TIMES historical maps of the world. Indeed, I have just watched Robert Greenberg’s (GREAT COURSES) magnificent MUSIC AS A MIRROR OF HISTORY. With extraordinary research of letters and other memorabilia, Dr. Greenberg provides a beautiful historical ballad, with substance sautéed with superb soul.
He provides, to this history professor (1992-2013), a fresh and persuasive insight into the European checkerboard over the past 500 years. Poland?? It was drawn and quartered, and then scotch taped together, far more than pulled pork. Czechoslovakia? Who remembered that 1905 was a pivotal moment in its history? Or the 17th century? What does it mean to be a ‘Czech,’ after Sudetenland in 1938 and the Czech Slovak split in 1991?
As for Italy—-what was Italy when the French arrived and left? How did Napoleon ravage Italy? Cavour and Garibaldi?
Russia seemed like an accordion—shrinking, expanding, a super expansion, and then a post-Soviet Union shrinking. The Baltic states were integral to this musical performance.
All this reinforces—-while Americans, with the exception of the Civil War, have never experienced permanent divisions in the lands acquired over centuries— that Europe has been an historical chessboard with pieces frequently replaced. One might speak of the relative ‘wholeness” of the United Kingdom since the 1707 Scottish agreement, though contemporaries are concerned about the future of Scotland and, perhaps, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Indeed, there was a time when this island nation was physically part of the European continent and elephants were roaming on this locale. Hadrian was a late comer.
Dr.Snyder, do you think WWIII can really be avoided? It seems if Putin continues his war on Ukraine, whether a good idea or not, there are only two outcomes: Ukraine is completely wiped out or WWIII begins. What is any other outcome? Americans need to start climbing on board more quickly with the problem in Ukraine.
I wish there was video with it too. It's easier for me to follow when there is also video. But it's very interesting as always thank you Dr.Snyder.
Thank you for this excellent clarification of empire as the principle for understanding European wars. I feel vindicated in my belief, since day one of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, they have to be defeated. I would also love to hear you explain why Sweden (im Swedish) and the rest of The Nordics want to be European! Is it that Sweden was an empire of sorts until 1632, got defeated and realized that other ways of operation would be more beneficial (they are)?
Putin wasted his leverage over Europe, which no longer relies on Russia for gas, German minister says.
ProtectDemocracy as autocrats make lousy neighbors ✌🏻
The Ukrainian resistance will hopefully keep free not only Ukrainians, but also help make free Russians.
The contention that integration comes from compensatory action to address decline from losing empires (through defeat in wars) although is well argued, I would suggest that the key word here is 'decline'. Talking of losing empires connects integration theory to the world history of empires -- but this is a moot point. 'DECLINE' -- whatever reason this happened -- for empires and non-empires [not all EU members lost empires, did they? some lost a few colonies, but hardly empires that gave them advantages] was the driving force for integration. Trade was important not because it was pacifying, but it allowed growth and reversed decline.
A REQUEST FOR BETTER SOUND, IF THAT'S POSSIBLE, PLEASE, DR SNYDER...
Your voice kept oscillating between close and audible, and then distant and barely audible, as if you had turned away from the mike.
Added to that, as you turned away, you seemed to drop your voice and rush the end of the sentence, so that it became actually inaudible.
I have listened twice, and didn’t do any better on the second try.
Also, those of us listening from overseas, or who have English as a second language, probably have more difficulty than those familiar with the accent and speech tones.
You may find it of interest that as an Australian/UK English speaker, I find you speak so fast I have to literally grit my teeth and strain to hold maximum concentration for an hour! There's no three-second out-times at the end of key points for us to detach then reconnect. I know Americans tend to speak faster, but are you faster even than the American average? Are you trying to fit in the maximum in the time available? Or, once you start, does it just keep coming in a single stream of consciousness? I'm interested to know...
Prof. Snyder - These are important ideas to communicate. The sound was so bad that i could not make out everything you said. I think you were getting near and then far from the mike, walking around maybe because you faded in and out. it would be very helpful to have a transcript or a summary of this talk. My takeaway is that this is a war that needs to be fought and Putin must lose it for even Russia to win at all. There is no winning otherwise. I think the Euros need to take that on board perhaps more deeply… as we all do, here too.
More Ukrainians are being killed due to USA military support, which is prolonging the war, … whereas a more peaceful compromise would plausibly-possibly have been achieved a year ago. The USA is prolonging this war.
I'm familiar with Russian history.
There are limits to what is acceptable.
Donbas-Kherson-Crimea are within the limits of acceptability. Beyond that, not much.
I prefer realism over unrealism in this case.
Remember, Russia is the big power in that neighborhood. It doesn't want NATO jurisdiction over the prime real-estate of Donbas-Kherson-Crimea, at a minimum, which was part of Russia, the country, from the 1700's till about the start time of the USSR, circa 1917-1922. Russia is insisting on a separate polarity from The West for their space. Russia will also have to compromise with nearby regions. I'm sharing my idea of arbitration to get on with peace,… and respecting multi-polarity of the world, - major powers multi-polarity.
Thanks so much for this presentation! I found it interesting to see in various publications today that russia says Ukraine and others must get on board with a "new world order" - ie, russian spheres of influence regardless of what anyone wants. Appalling of course and so typical. I hope you will at some point say a few things about the meeting between Ukraine and Poland this week. Given their long history I found it all completely fascinating.
Here's how I've understand that Ukraine/Russia neighborhood, based on the history of the region:
Russia had 'Novorossiya' from the late 1700's through till about the USSR, about 1920, which included the Donbas to Crimea region, and some more land around there. Ukraine was a state within the USSR. Russia was/is the most powerful country in that neighborhood. Ukraine was given Crimea within the context of the USSR as a state, not a country.
That's prime real estate. The Donbas was considered a 'heart of Russia'(multiple 'hearts' in Russia btw). The Donbas was a 'wild-fields borderland' of non-nationalists, basically,… besides Ukraine being considered a various 'borderland' per it's name etymology. Russia has had a military base continuously(or nearly so) in Sevastopol since the late 1700's.
The USA meddled in the deposing of Yanukovich who attempted to make a balance with Ukraine, Russia, and the EU.
Ukraine embarked on pushing Russian influence out in favor of the EU. Given the long intimate intertwining of Ukraine and Russia, and the war against the separatists in the Donbas region,….Russia embarked on reclamation of the Crimea and Donbas regions (and through to the south Kherson bank I'd figure).
The Crimea through the Donbas region is prime real estate for Russia,…. Russia won't allow for that region to go under the jurisdiction of The West, by way of Ukraine.
And so, the prudent thing to do is compromise with Russia, to allow Russia that Crimea-Donbas-Kherson region,…. and beyond that Russia will have to make some conscessions with The West/Ukraine/etc.
Let's take the high ground on this in making peace, and respecting Russia's neighborhood space, given Russia's power and history of acquisition.
Sincerely,
Scott
p.s. I'm not a bleeding heart. I seek compromise and peace, giving reasonable respects to all.
Spot on ...
Don't know if any of you have seen this. I am so angry right now I'm shaking. From the NYT 4/6/23: "Ukraine War Plans Leak Prompts Pentagon Investigation. Classified documents detailing secret American and NATO plans have appeared on Twitter and Telegram." Smart move on the part of the Ukrainians: "But early on during the war, Ukrainian officials were hesitant about sharing their battle plans with the United States, for fear of leaks." https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/06/us/politics/ukraine-war-plan-russia.html?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
The video for this lecture by Timothy Snyder can be found on the Program in Contemporary European Politics and Society website:
https://eps.princeton.edu/news/2023/empire-integration-and-ukraine-provides-alternative-historical-trajectory-european-union
I wonder if the US is an empire that mistakes itself for a nation? I also wonder if nations exist that are not left-overs from defeated empires? It is wonderful to have the chance to consider what I haven't considered before, to feel the imaginative power of Timothy Sander's revisions. He offers an intimacy with historical complexities that is similar to enlightenment.