Next thing we know, Ziobro will be at cabinet meetings, and accompanying Kushner and Co. to made-up peace talks. Perhaps he'll run for office, Constitution be damned.
You simply couldn’t make it up! We in the UK HOPE there is some way of bringing down the TRUMP “ government “ but we don’t know how you Americans are going to do it. Good Luck!!
The precedent for this is Andrew Tate. Perhaps our leadership at Substack can likewise follow precedent an offer Ziobro a home here. With a little promotion he can attract a large following.
The two word description for what this country is becoming: Banana Republic.
No we’ve become a Fourth rate country. We are so broken right now. November will be our make or break moment. Our tell. If we can’t reverse our course in November , we will be going down rapidly.
And the Republicans are working hard at keeping Democrats out of power. There are the voter purges, proof of citizenship, repeal of the Voting Rights Act of 1965. And who knows what Donald will try to do as the election gets closer. Or what he will do if the Democrats will win. We know he doesn't accept any election he doesn't win.
What does it say about us? That we elected to the highest office in the land a convicted felon, adjudicated rapist, who led an insurrection and now is back with a vengeance to destroy the USA. Where will he wind up? Perhaps his buddy Vlad Putin has a dacha for him? Perhaps his pal Netanyahu has a nice cabin for him in Desdemona? As Orange Man builds his bunker (ballroom, my ass), let's remember that authoritarians and their fellow bunker inhabitants almost invariably meet the same end. DonOld will certain have a seat at Hitler's stammtisch (Regular's Table).
Ouch. Thank you for sharing this to alert us. We are not the country I wish for, i.e., one predictably supporting rule of law. The irony of our deporting/torturing innocent brown people, and welcoming criminal white people. Ouch.
Maybe it's because we are not "a" country but a conglomerate of disparate peoples that have vastly different backgrounds and values. It's the thesis of Colinn Woodard's book American Nations. I recommend it to everyone. I understand the USA much better since reading it. It seems a major trigger for the disparity to surface is when immigration becomes unpopular. Our current era is not the first time this has happened.
Here's the transcript (which has difficulty with Ziobro's name)
This is Tim Snyder, I'm in Poland now, and I wanted to share with you a story about the export of authoritarian regimes, where it succeeds, where it fails. Curious situation here, a former Polish Minister of Justice, Zbigniew Żobro, ...fled Poland after his right-wing government was defeated in elections.
He's accused of committing a number of crimes, some of them quite striking. For example, diverting funds that were meant to be used for victims of crime in order to pay for spyware to use against his domestic political opponents and journalists. Jobro, in general, was one of the major architects of the attempted...
...transformation of Polish democracy into an authoritarian regime, associated in particular in his role as Minister of Justice in trying to politicize and subordinate the Supreme Court to the current political interests of his own party. After his party lost elections back in 23, he fled to Viktor Orban's Hungary... He was deprived of his Polish passport,
deprived of a diplomatic passport, received in right-wing authoritarian Hungary under Orban as a political refugee. Now, Orban's government has lost elections in dramatic fashion, and Jobro, the right-wing political exile from Poland, has now left Hungary for none other than the United States. So Jobro has left Hungary, apparently with the connivance of American authorities, at least.
Some of them were at the stage of the game where some Americans are saying they didn't want this and others are saying they didn't. Clearly the White House did, though. So we are now, and this is where the story stands at the moment, we, the United States,
are now at the stage where we are accepting sort of second-tier, second-rate architects of failed authoritarian... Transitions who are wanted for rather serious crimes in their home countries. We're bringing them to our country. And I just want to ask... First of all, I want to ask you to read about the story.
Plenty of people are writing about it, including The Guardian, lots of good reportage in English. But I want to ask us to think about this. What does this mean about our country, where we become a place where we welcome people who are committed, who are accused of corruption. We are welcoming people who...
...are architects of attempted authoritarian transitions. We're welcoming people who are fleeing not only from their own country, but fleeing from another attempted authoritarian regime. What does that mean? I mean, doesn't it make us a bit third-rate ourselves to become the kind of, you know, third repository of people like this? It's a question for us as Americans,
because after all, don't we all agree that we want the rule of law? Don't we all agree that we would like for politicians at home or abroad to be following the rule of law? What does it mean when we go around the law to bring people to our country who are serious opponents of the rule of law?
What does it mean when the people who get special treatment in the United States are precisely those who have been trying to break democracy elsewhere? What does this say about us?
You're welcome! I like the idea of people in a room, reading. Substack always generates a transcript of the videos, which I can access on my phone. If the video is short enough, I can copy and paste it into the comments. There are so many reasons that people have mentioned, for liking to have the written form.
What does it say about US?! .... or about the U.S. "current" gov't. In our democratic republic, we still believe in the rule of law, and a gov't of, by, and for The People. I will fight this perversion of this current trump-gov't and repub-electeds and MAGA voters. trump invites white South Africans as "persecuted"? He says that whites are being discriminated against here, because of laws that even out equality? He invites far-right exiles to live here? These are all perversions, and I will not stand for these changes in our nation. I feel like I'm again living in 1950s segregated Montgomery, with the last repeal of the Voting Rights Act. I'll keep on keepin on, until we again elect honest legislators.
Seeing how SCOTUS is shamefully working against us, we need to do all we can so that the MagaGOP doesn’t win the election in November. I think if we follow the lead of historians and those whose opinions we respect, like Prof. Snyder, Anne Applebaum, Ruth Ben-Ghiat, Marc Elias, Prof. Eddie Glaude Jr., those are a few on my list, and we do all we possibly can do until November, we may be able to have a Teutonic shift, and start to pull our country together. I also don’t understand how a convicted criminal could possibly have been on the ballot for President, ever!
Two Narcissists Holding The Global Economy Hostage
Both Cheeto and Netanyahu continue the Iranian war folly while the rest of the global economy suffers Although one can’t get inside their one on one conversations, the actions of these two dirtbags display a particular narcissistic arrogance that is specifically relegated to psychopaths
The actions and interviews suggests their internal conversations are along the lines of “teach the world a lesson when they support war crime accusations” Just because we’re committing genocide and inhumane atrocities “How dare they? Well, we’ll show them not to mess with us narcissists”
Strangling small countries that cannot withstand the oil deprivation like China which has massive reserves is what gives narcissists glee They love to inflict pain and suffering because it demonstrates how powerful they are, “Look, we're screwing the global economy”
Of course the mantra is “Iran cannot have nuclear weapons” but they both know that stopping that is impossible but “hey we don’t care”
I’d like to hear your thoughts on declaring Trump’s government and its actions illegal the way Magyar has done in Hungary— if that is an effective thing to do to help undo the damage this admin has caused, if it will help or hurt improving our democracy & institutions post-Trump. . I haven’t read up on it enough myself. And yes, the U.S. is a banana republic, harboring wannabe petty tyrants. Watch the Polish guy flee - & all Trump admin people & Republicans as well when Trump dies or we’re rid of him.
You have to remember that "restoring democracy" can mean a situation when 51% of the population is "Finally! We can throw out authoritarian rules and bring back the democratic laws!", while for the remaining 49% those authoritarian rules were not only "OK", but precisely what they wanted.
This is tricky. In Hungary, the last election was such a landslide that "revolutionary actions" can be done, the "ancient regime" supporters are too stunned to oppose. But if elections are 51/49, then a revolution, even "a revolution with a democratic electoral mandate", can mean a civil war.
So, in the "edge cases", restoration of democracy has to go "according to the law". Which is an uphill battle, as that very law was shaped by the previous authoritarian regime (see the US Supreme Court situation). All this means that leaders willing and capable to "ride the edge" of the law, decisively, are needed. For example, Merrick Garland was a classic staffing blunder. An ideal man, but for regular times. He was landed in a highly distorted landscape, for which he was a very wrong man.
Absolutely, it depends on the outcome of the midterms -- there needs to be an overwhelming rejection of Republican candidates, especially in red districts as we've seen in special elections the past 2 years. The protests matter, too - the size of protests and if former Trump voters are joining them.
The same will need to happen in the 2028 presidential race. Magyar was tireless in going all over Hungary and holding town meetings. Meeting and talking with voters in person is crucial - it may have been a gift that Magyar couldn't use TV appearances in his campaign. Democrats and non-Trumps should take note. And Democratic candidates in 2028 had better show the American people, they're not just going to tinker with the system, that they're clear-eyed about the destruction Trump has caused, and are going to systematically undo the damage.
And that means, as you say, even if it's an "edge case." Totally agree about Garland and Biden, really, although he was effective in getting legislation passed. It's just they and most Democrats did not read as you eloquently put it "a highly distorted landscape," that Trump and MAGA were not done. And the mainstream media - God, they have aided and abetted this authoritarianism by treating it as if we're still in our normal politics. We can't give an inch.
Is this correct information that the United States harbored Nazis after the Second World War? Unfortunately, this does not surprise me or seem like something out of character for the United States. I am among those who believes we didn't have a democracy until the voting rights act of 1960's. That black and native peoples have not enjoyed a non-fascist country.
Thousands of German scientists were brought to the US after WW2, some of whom were members of the Nazi Party. These included Wernher von Braun, who had developed the V2 rockets which killed many thousands of people in London. In America he went on to develop the Saturn rocket which powered the Apollo missions to the moon. (Tom Lehrer had a bitterly funny song about it.)
It says that we cannot let our rogue governments do whatever they want. I'm for peaceful protests but we need LEADERS that tell us where Zioobro will be appearing, where he lives and why is he not picked up by ICE as a criminal from Poland. Does Poland have the ability to extradict him? WE cannot wait around for slow actions of our no law/order, no rules, no protection, anything goes Federal Government. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH but what do you want us to do about it except vote and protest. Peaceful is not easy and may never work in time to save democracy.
The main accusation against Ziobro is using the machinery of the State (public funds, prosecutors, various gov agencies, police harassment), for no objective reason, against his political opponents. Which is not a crime in the US, AFAIK.
He is also accused of awarding contracts (public money) through fraudulent bidding processes, or directly with no competitive bidding. Which is not a crime in the US either.
So, under the bilateral treaty on extraditions between Poland and the US, Poland cannot ask for his extradition. Because he did nothing illegal, according to American law.
Next thing we know, Ziobro will be at cabinet meetings, and accompanying Kushner and Co. to made-up peace talks. Perhaps he'll run for office, Constitution be damned.
You simply couldn’t make it up! We in the UK HOPE there is some way of bringing down the TRUMP “ government “ but we don’t know how you Americans are going to do it. Good Luck!!
Every time it looks like there might be a way, the Supreme Court steps in to block the path. Thanks for the well wishes from abroad!!
The precedent for this is Andrew Tate. Perhaps our leadership at Substack can likewise follow precedent an offer Ziobro a home here. With a little promotion he can attract a large following.
The two word description for what this country is becoming: Banana Republic.
No we’ve become a Fourth rate country. We are so broken right now. November will be our make or break moment. Our tell. If we can’t reverse our course in November , we will be going down rapidly.
And the Republicans are working hard at keeping Democrats out of power. There are the voter purges, proof of citizenship, repeal of the Voting Rights Act of 1965. And who knows what Donald will try to do as the election gets closer. Or what he will do if the Democrats will win. We know he doesn't accept any election he doesn't win.
I am thinking the same thing
Well maybe he will give the Trump administration the same disastrous advice that brought down Orban. We can hope.
What does it say about us? That we elected to the highest office in the land a convicted felon, adjudicated rapist, who led an insurrection and now is back with a vengeance to destroy the USA. Where will he wind up? Perhaps his buddy Vlad Putin has a dacha for him? Perhaps his pal Netanyahu has a nice cabin for him in Desdemona? As Orange Man builds his bunker (ballroom, my ass), let's remember that authoritarians and their fellow bunker inhabitants almost invariably meet the same end. DonOld will certain have a seat at Hitler's stammtisch (Regular's Table).
Bad things. Can we do anything about it? Thanks for all you do Tim.
I think he is big debt to Putin.
Lindsey Graham. Please read and explain to your voters in SC why this should be so:
TS: "Ziobro is a wanted man with no passport. The Trump White House just went to a good deal of trouble to bring him to the US."
Just as the Tates
Reminder- Viktor Orbans son fled Hungary with all their ill gotten wealth days before the election. You can guess where he’s living now.
You can be sure they paid the bribe to Trump
Maybe just joined the Mar a Lago golf club?
We’ve become despot depot.
Good one.
Ouch. Thank you for sharing this to alert us. We are not the country I wish for, i.e., one predictably supporting rule of law. The irony of our deporting/torturing innocent brown people, and welcoming criminal white people. Ouch.
Maybe it's because we are not "a" country but a conglomerate of disparate peoples that have vastly different backgrounds and values. It's the thesis of Colinn Woodard's book American Nations. I recommend it to everyone. I understand the USA much better since reading it. It seems a major trigger for the disparity to surface is when immigration becomes unpopular. Our current era is not the first time this has happened.
What does it say about us that hasn't already been said...we deport law abiding immigrants and import law breaking autocrats...
So, Trump cherry-picks his own illegal aliens.
Well said!
Here's the transcript (which has difficulty with Ziobro's name)
This is Tim Snyder, I'm in Poland now, and I wanted to share with you a story about the export of authoritarian regimes, where it succeeds, where it fails. Curious situation here, a former Polish Minister of Justice, Zbigniew Żobro, ...fled Poland after his right-wing government was defeated in elections.
He's accused of committing a number of crimes, some of them quite striking. For example, diverting funds that were meant to be used for victims of crime in order to pay for spyware to use against his domestic political opponents and journalists. Jobro, in general, was one of the major architects of the attempted...
...transformation of Polish democracy into an authoritarian regime, associated in particular in his role as Minister of Justice in trying to politicize and subordinate the Supreme Court to the current political interests of his own party. After his party lost elections back in 23, he fled to Viktor Orban's Hungary... He was deprived of his Polish passport,
deprived of a diplomatic passport, received in right-wing authoritarian Hungary under Orban as a political refugee. Now, Orban's government has lost elections in dramatic fashion, and Jobro, the right-wing political exile from Poland, has now left Hungary for none other than the United States. So Jobro has left Hungary, apparently with the connivance of American authorities, at least.
Some of them were at the stage of the game where some Americans are saying they didn't want this and others are saying they didn't. Clearly the White House did, though. So we are now, and this is where the story stands at the moment, we, the United States,
are now at the stage where we are accepting sort of second-tier, second-rate architects of failed authoritarian... Transitions who are wanted for rather serious crimes in their home countries. We're bringing them to our country. And I just want to ask... First of all, I want to ask you to read about the story.
Plenty of people are writing about it, including The Guardian, lots of good reportage in English. But I want to ask us to think about this. What does this mean about our country, where we become a place where we welcome people who are committed, who are accused of corruption. We are welcoming people who...
...are architects of attempted authoritarian transitions. We're welcoming people who are fleeing not only from their own country, but fleeing from another attempted authoritarian regime. What does that mean? I mean, doesn't it make us a bit third-rate ourselves to become the kind of, you know, third repository of people like this? It's a question for us as Americans,
because after all, don't we all agree that we want the rule of law? Don't we all agree that we would like for politicians at home or abroad to be following the rule of law? What does it mean when we go around the law to bring people to our country who are serious opponents of the rule of law?
What does it mean when the people who get special treatment in the United States are precisely those who have been trying to break democracy elsewhere? What does this say about us?
Thank you Karen. Your transcript is appreciated. Sometimes it’s just not possible to listen when other people in the room are reading.
You're welcome! I like the idea of people in a room, reading. Substack always generates a transcript of the videos, which I can access on my phone. If the video is short enough, I can copy and paste it into the comments. There are so many reasons that people have mentioned, for liking to have the written form.
Thank you again for taking the time.
Very valuable for the example of Ziobro's crimes, not in Dr Snyder's summary.
Really valuable to me, thankyou so much. I print these out and have an excellent set of paper files safe from internet glitches and breakdown.
But I just don't understand why Substack doesn't provide us directly with a print option. Can you explain?
No idea. You could try asking the Substack chatbot! That could be fun.
Aaaaagh! Think I might prefer to stay ignorant...
What does it say about US?! .... or about the U.S. "current" gov't. In our democratic republic, we still believe in the rule of law, and a gov't of, by, and for The People. I will fight this perversion of this current trump-gov't and repub-electeds and MAGA voters. trump invites white South Africans as "persecuted"? He says that whites are being discriminated against here, because of laws that even out equality? He invites far-right exiles to live here? These are all perversions, and I will not stand for these changes in our nation. I feel like I'm again living in 1950s segregated Montgomery, with the last repeal of the Voting Rights Act. I'll keep on keepin on, until we again elect honest legislators.
Seeing how SCOTUS is shamefully working against us, we need to do all we can so that the MagaGOP doesn’t win the election in November. I think if we follow the lead of historians and those whose opinions we respect, like Prof. Snyder, Anne Applebaum, Ruth Ben-Ghiat, Marc Elias, Prof. Eddie Glaude Jr., those are a few on my list, and we do all we possibly can do until November, we may be able to have a Teutonic shift, and start to pull our country together. I also don’t understand how a convicted criminal could possibly have been on the ballot for President, ever!
Those historians, I respect also.
We need a law, or constitutional amendment that states convicted felons may not run for President or Vice President
Two Narcissists Holding The Global Economy Hostage
Both Cheeto and Netanyahu continue the Iranian war folly while the rest of the global economy suffers Although one can’t get inside their one on one conversations, the actions of these two dirtbags display a particular narcissistic arrogance that is specifically relegated to psychopaths
The actions and interviews suggests their internal conversations are along the lines of “teach the world a lesson when they support war crime accusations” Just because we’re committing genocide and inhumane atrocities “How dare they? Well, we’ll show them not to mess with us narcissists”
Strangling small countries that cannot withstand the oil deprivation like China which has massive reserves is what gives narcissists glee They love to inflict pain and suffering because it demonstrates how powerful they are, “Look, we're screwing the global economy”
Of course the mantra is “Iran cannot have nuclear weapons” but they both know that stopping that is impossible but “hey we don’t care”
I’d like to hear your thoughts on declaring Trump’s government and its actions illegal the way Magyar has done in Hungary— if that is an effective thing to do to help undo the damage this admin has caused, if it will help or hurt improving our democracy & institutions post-Trump. . I haven’t read up on it enough myself. And yes, the U.S. is a banana republic, harboring wannabe petty tyrants. Watch the Polish guy flee - & all Trump admin people & Republicans as well when Trump dies or we’re rid of him.
You have to remember that "restoring democracy" can mean a situation when 51% of the population is "Finally! We can throw out authoritarian rules and bring back the democratic laws!", while for the remaining 49% those authoritarian rules were not only "OK", but precisely what they wanted.
This is tricky. In Hungary, the last election was such a landslide that "revolutionary actions" can be done, the "ancient regime" supporters are too stunned to oppose. But if elections are 51/49, then a revolution, even "a revolution with a democratic electoral mandate", can mean a civil war.
So, in the "edge cases", restoration of democracy has to go "according to the law". Which is an uphill battle, as that very law was shaped by the previous authoritarian regime (see the US Supreme Court situation). All this means that leaders willing and capable to "ride the edge" of the law, decisively, are needed. For example, Merrick Garland was a classic staffing blunder. An ideal man, but for regular times. He was landed in a highly distorted landscape, for which he was a very wrong man.
Absolutely, it depends on the outcome of the midterms -- there needs to be an overwhelming rejection of Republican candidates, especially in red districts as we've seen in special elections the past 2 years. The protests matter, too - the size of protests and if former Trump voters are joining them.
The same will need to happen in the 2028 presidential race. Magyar was tireless in going all over Hungary and holding town meetings. Meeting and talking with voters in person is crucial - it may have been a gift that Magyar couldn't use TV appearances in his campaign. Democrats and non-Trumps should take note. And Democratic candidates in 2028 had better show the American people, they're not just going to tinker with the system, that they're clear-eyed about the destruction Trump has caused, and are going to systematically undo the damage.
And that means, as you say, even if it's an "edge case." Totally agree about Garland and Biden, really, although he was effective in getting legislation passed. It's just they and most Democrats did not read as you eloquently put it "a highly distorted landscape," that Trump and MAGA were not done. And the mainstream media - God, they have aided and abetted this authoritarianism by treating it as if we're still in our normal politics. We can't give an inch.
Is this correct information that the United States harbored Nazis after the Second World War? Unfortunately, this does not surprise me or seem like something out of character for the United States. I am among those who believes we didn't have a democracy until the voting rights act of 1960's. That black and native peoples have not enjoyed a non-fascist country.
Thousands of German scientists were brought to the US after WW2, some of whom were members of the Nazi Party. These included Wernher von Braun, who had developed the V2 rockets which killed many thousands of people in London. In America he went on to develop the Saturn rocket which powered the Apollo missions to the moon. (Tom Lehrer had a bitterly funny song about it.)
That import-the-Nazis programs was called Operation Paperclip, Karen.
There's a scene near the end of "October Sky" with Werhner von Braun, rewarding a young, science-fair-winning, aspiring rocket guy from West Virginia.
This is both sickening and frightening.
We must stop this now.
I thank you Professor Snyder for informing, inspiring and irritating us into action.
I like your last line: “irritating us into action”.
It says that we cannot let our rogue governments do whatever they want. I'm for peaceful protests but we need LEADERS that tell us where Zioobro will be appearing, where he lives and why is he not picked up by ICE as a criminal from Poland. Does Poland have the ability to extradict him? WE cannot wait around for slow actions of our no law/order, no rules, no protection, anything goes Federal Government. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH but what do you want us to do about it except vote and protest. Peaceful is not easy and may never work in time to save democracy.
The main accusation against Ziobro is using the machinery of the State (public funds, prosecutors, various gov agencies, police harassment), for no objective reason, against his political opponents. Which is not a crime in the US, AFAIK.
He is also accused of awarding contracts (public money) through fraudulent bidding processes, or directly with no competitive bidding. Which is not a crime in the US either.
So, under the bilateral treaty on extraditions between Poland and the US, Poland cannot ask for his extradition. Because he did nothing illegal, according to American law.
Thank you for telling us. I will tell my members of Congress that I vehemently oppose this.
It says simply that the US is allied with dictators and not with elected leaders.
Holy moly!